Jacques villeneuve

[oldtimer]

One could argue that Mario won the 1978 title by developing the 79 into the car that it became.  Remember when it first appeared it was a dog!  Prost won the 86 title in a inferior car to the Williams but Nelson and Nigel took turns screwing each other out of points and of course the famous blown tyre in Adelaide sealed the deal.
Fax

Fax - got so carried away with responding to the nonesense written about Senna I forgot to question another of your 'facts'

I remember being at a very wet International Trophy Race (I think that was what it was called anyway) at Silverstone in March of 1978 - the competition debut of the Lotus 79.  I am pretty sure Mario stuck the car comfortably on pole.  He was absolutely waltzing away with the race before becoming a little careless in the rain...  It is true that the Type 79 was not ready for the start of the GP season, Mario gave the car its GP debut at the sixth race of the season in Belgium, qualifying on pole, 0.79s ahead of Reutemann’s Ferrari and handsomely winning the race.

Claiming that it was a dog when it first apppeared seems rather strong - although I do concede that Mario did play a significant role in its development.

[Fax]

Nah Doris, not going to be drawn into a pissing match.  Senna was arrogant, self obsessed and showed time & again a blatant disregard for the safety of his colleagues, the marshals who line the track and those in the pitlane.  He corrupted the racers ethic with his deliberate swerves and collisions with opponents who dared to have the audacity to be in front him or attempt to overtake him.  Also his press conferences were full of the most over the top dribble I've ever heard come out of a athletes mouth, bleating on about his beliefs and virtues, the non-stop paranoia about how the FIA was out to get him.  The guy clearly took himself way too seriously,  he forgot he was nothing more than a  driver of racing cars, not a head of state.  Regarding the Lotus 79, when it first tested over the winter of 77/78 at Ricard it was very difficult to drive, the original ground effect tunnels had the center of pressure way too far forward, and the Lotus box never ceased to be problematic.  That's why I said Mario developed it into the winner it became, by the time of the International Trophy it had a hell of alot of development miles on it from both Mario & Ronnie.  I was quoting Mario himself who called it a dog when it was first tested.
Fax

[Andy Zarse]

I flew to the States last year specifically to discuss these points with Fax. Here's us shooting the sh-it on all manner of motor racing topics. You may recognise this as the famous Turn 10 at Sebring (thanks Steve).



Anyway, the one thing we did agree on is that Senna was a total tosser. Jeezus H Christ in a McLaren, I hated that man from the very second he showed up on the scene in F1! I simply cannot understand the current hero worship of such an appalling sportsman. He's so similar to Schumacher it's ridiculous and thus I would contend that a lot of what JV says of Schumacher could equally be applied to Senna. The tragedy is that these two people are/were so exceptionally gifted behind the wheel that it makes their disgraceful behaviour on the track all the more nauseating.

When Senna was unfortunately killed on that awful weekend, I can honestly say I was more upset at the passing of Roland the Rat and the terrible subsequent injury the Karl Wendlinger on the basis that I'd seen them race at Le Mans.

In summary, yes I agree that lap at Donny was one of the finest ever, and yes I appreciated his committment to the cause and his sheer God-given talent, but everyone must surely agree that he was the most graceless nerk ever to set foot into a racing car.


<Andy, Webshots seems to be a bit against cross-hosting of photos, so I've uploaded my original photo to Flickr and linked to it as above - no little red cross now - Steve>

[Fax]

Ah yes, dusk at Turn 10 at Sebring, some superb company, cold beverages, and lively conversation about the sport we love....Dosen't get any better than that
Fax

[BigH]

What did it for me, with Senna, was when he went and had a whole range of hair colouring products named after him. I suppose he pre-empted MS on that one, but in my opinion he jumped the gun, that's no way for a mans man to behave. And it's a strange choice of endorsement don't you think?, I can't ever recall seeing the top of a racing drivers head, after a race the cap replaces the helmet quicker than a teenager covering up coming out of the shower on a dodgy campsite.
I've got to say though, I thought he was a graceless sod too, along with Mansell and Prost I never understood how a race winner could behave so miserably in the post race interviews, you'd think they'd just seen their arses never mind won a GP. And who can forget Rodriguez Timotei?
Funnily enough I had a friend who knew Senna quite well, and I recall having a conversation, expressing similar opinions about Senna that are to be found in this thread, over a couple of beers in the local. He couldn't disagree with a lot of what I said, but insisted that without a camera/microphone/media type in front of him, he really was a nice guy. - Very shy, but always polite and no sign of an ego. Maybe he was schizo...
What planet is JV on for Cliffsake? To insist that people will forget about MS is a bit like saying sex will never catch on. How many WC titles has he won now, 7? 25? I dunno, but how could a sport forget it's most successful competitor? Like him or not, and I don't, he'll be remembered for a long long time, and when anyone says 'F1 Champion' the name Schumacher will pop into your head the same way as Brazil and World Cup. 
H
PS - has anyone noticed all the dead badgers on the road recently? I don't know what's going on, but every time I pass one I always try to pull over and check out just exactly how rough its ar*ehole really is...

[monkey]

Fax, Mr Zarse, I can see that we are never going to agree on this so lets ‘agree to disagree.’ However I would in parting just like to make a couple of points if I may.
Fax, you suggest that Senna put other drivers and track marshals at risk. I have a couple of views on this. Firstly if I may quote you from an unrelated thread, ‘Read the ticket, “Motor racing is dangerous” Secondly the way I see it is that Senna was aggressive and determined, it showed in the way he drove. I don’t believe however that he was reckless. It was his ability to improvise, to take risks that made him thrilling to watch, you never knew what he was going to try next. What I have read about the man would suggest that when he executed what appeared to be high risk manoeuvres he did so because he 100% believed it was possible. He wasn’t always right, he was after all only human. I wonder if he may have been deluded in as much as that he thought he was invincible. He was arrogant, but then so are most people who live life at the top of their chosen professions.

Mr Zarse, I always read your contributions and have a great deal of respect for you and your views. When the thread is funny, then you are funny, serious you are serious about the sport we love, balanced and well informed. To suggest that Sennas’ career was pretty much all about a fast lap on a wet Donington is frankly beneath you.
I too was deeply saddened by the tragedy that befell Roland Ratzenberger. Like you I saw him race at Le Mans. In fact I was lucky enough to stumble across him very early on when I saw him put on a very classy display at Brands Hatch in the Formula Ford festival. You are right it was a truly tragic weekend.

As for Mr Schumacher I will judge in the only that I feel qualified so to do. As a racing driver. Please note this is a personal opinion and I do not want to offend anyone but I would like to use a simile for convenience. Schumacher is to me the motor racing equivalent of Eric Clapton. He is technically about as perfect as you can get, he is so fast, so precise. He has been at the top of his profession for as long as I can remember and I admire and respect what he has achieved. But I find the combination of all of these factors irrationally tedious.

Finally I would like to say that my opinions of these men are as racing drivers. As a paying spectator I feel qualified and justified in being able to come to these conclusions and publish them on this sight. I did not/have not met either of them which obviously puts me at a disadvantage to Fax and Mr Zarse who I can only assume knew/know them pretty well otherwise I wonder what makes them feel so comfortable about publishing such defamatory remarks.

[BigH]

I can only assume knew/know them pretty well otherwise I wonder what makes them feel so comfortable about publishing such defamatory remarks.

Now now monkey...
I never/have never exchanged tea and biscuits with Adolf/Thatcher/AA Gill or Michael Howard but I'm pretty sure they're all right old tw*ts.
Pinochet knew his onions though.
H

[paultarsey]

At least MS seems to ENJOY winning.  There are so many of the current bunch (notably Raikonnen) look so miserable when they are on the podium it is unbelievable.

It is good to see that so many people on this thread have the same view about Senna.  He did more harm to the 'sport' than anyone in living memory.  I sometimes wonder what would have happened to his reputation had the Imola accident not happened.  He may have been seen for the tosser he really was.  It seems no-one in the mainstream press is prepared to propogate this argument for fear of upsetting the masses.  He wasn't Mother Teresa of Calcutta, he was only a racing driver.

[monkey]

I can only assume knew/know them pretty well otherwise I wonder what makes them feel so comfortable about publishing such defamatory remarks.

Now now monkey...
I never/have never exchanged tea and biscuits with Adolf/Thatcher/AA Gill or Michael Howard but I'm pretty sure they're all right old tw*ts.
Pinochet knew his onions though.
H

Good point well made H but all of the above mentioned are noted in history and their actions are well documented. I was interested in your remark on your previous post regarding your mate and Senna being nice enough away from the glare of publicity. I have met Prost on several occasions and found him to be the same. I guess my point is that I feel we are sometimes a little quick to judge.

[BigH]

He wasn't Mother Teresa of Calcutta,

Now you're talking, there was a racing driver and a half and no mistake! Who could forget the Holy Trinity team in the sixties (Anno Domino)?
That wet afternnon at Zandvoort when The Father, The Son and Holy Ghost came in at 1,2,3 brought a lump to my confessional. MTs selfless driving, and magic with the boiled rice, paved the way for that result...
H

[paultarsey]

However Zandvoort is a very difficult place to learn and I have heard rumours that Mrs T got lost after turning right into the hairpin at Tarzan and disappeared into the sand dunes.  Much like her son did a few years later.  It's in the genes....

[Andy Zarse]

Monkey, like you say we all have our own opinions and have expressed them well. Seriously I don't think I tried to summarise Senna's whole career in one lap at a wet Donnington. But on reflection, if one had to summarise any driver's career in a single lap I truly can't think of any better lap I have ever witnessed. Thus I think this should be taken as the utmost complement; my mentioning it was certainly never meant as a put down.

My final word on the matter. Some think Ayrton Senna DaSilva was the greatest driver ever. Some don't. Some think Fangio was the all time top banana, whilst others would contend that it was Tazio Nuvolari or Alberto Ascari. What is remarkable about the likes of these old timers and also the likes of Moss, Collins, Clarke and a host of other wonderful drivers over the years is that I have never, ever seen, read or heard anyone express such excoriating sentiments about them. Nobody questions their sportsmanship though they must surely all have taken risks equal to Senna's when competing against other drivers on the track. That is why, in my opinion, it is impossible that Senna can ever, should never, be classed as the greatest.

[Andy Zarse]

What did it for me, with Senna, was when he went and had a whole range of hair colouring products named after him.

The bastards are all at it, it's even plumbed the depths of World Touring Cars.

Yvan Muller and his creamed rice and mono-sodium glutemate snack:



Julian Bailey and his raw cane alcohol and condensed milk liqueur:




All shamelessly purloined from the wonderful Sniffpetrol

[Andy Zarse]

[monkey]

Monkey, like you say we all have our own opinions and have expressed them well. Seriously I don't think I tried to summarise Senna's whole career in one lap at a wet Donnington. But on reflection, if one had to summarise any driver's career in a single lap I truly can't think of any better lap I have ever witnessed. Thus I think this should be taken as the utmost complement; my mentioning it was certainly never meant as a put down.

My final word on the matter. Some think Ayrton Senna DaSilva was the greatest driver ever. Some don't. Some think Fangio was the all time top banana, whilst others would contend that it was Tazio Nuvolari or Alberto Ascari. What is remarkable about the likes of these old timers and also the likes of Moss, Collins, Clarke and a host of other wonderful drivers over the years is that I have never, ever seen, read or heard anyone express such excoriating sentiments about them. Nobody questions their sportsmanship though they must surely all have taken risks equal to Senna's when competing against other drivers on the track. That is why, in my opinion, it is impossible that Senna can ever, should never, be classed as the greatest.

All good points well made. Perhaps I have a rather pragmatic and selfish view on all of this.......Senna was my favourite enemy by which I always shouted for the 'the other guy' but despite all of that, I just loved to watch him race.

Speaking of wet laps at Donington, I think we’ll be seeing plenty of those on Sunday!!