Someone else thinking like me

[Fax]

Andy,
You've met me and know that some of this is serious and most is for shits & giggles.  No doubt, our heroes had driver and spectator safety as a high priority.  That said, there is such a thing as overkill.  I've got a friend who emailed me and said "If that place (being Le Mans) looked any more antiseptic it would be a operating room" Watching racing from across two hundred yards of gravel doesn't get it for me.
Fax

[Kpy]

Rhino & KPY,
I was there just a couple of years ago, trust me I've seen it, looking uphill, downhill and every way in between.  The viewing is sh**t, maybe your just used to it and accept it, I expect better for my hard earned income.
Fax

Fax - First, yes I've been to races where spectators have been killed by flying debris or even a car which leapt the protective banking.
Second, the uninformed rubbish is the badly-written article you posted a link to. I've read nothing in it that tells me the viewing is sh**t. The article IS sh**t though.
I spent quite a lot of time this last weekend with a bunch of guys whose job it is to be on the other side of the fencing you so detest. The chief marshal is ten years younger than I am, but has had the sad task of failing to get a driver out of a car alive at his post at Le Mans on three separate occasions. One of the other guys I spent a lot of time with is called Steve Tarrant. He's still marshalling, but is confined to a wheelchair after being hit by a car at Goodwood seven years ago, which cost him a leg (and nearly both of them) and cost the guy standing beside him his life. Do you really want to put the viewing public to be exposed to the same risks, just so that you can get a better view? For myself I had my stopwatch on Paul Hawkins (hit unguarded tree), Jo Siffert (crap fuel cells) and Gilles Villeneuve (crap qualifying regulations and bad luck). I saw Ronnie Peterson and his F2 March end up against a flimsy fence at Mallory Park, within a whisker of harming a whole crowd of spectators
You say you were there a couple of years ago, uphill downhill etc - I've been going since 1981 (I came to Le Mans  20 years after I started going to Grands Prix), and I know my way around - I've never had a problem with the view even though I need my mountain bike to cover the extremities of the circuit and each year requires a little tweaking to find the best spots. I admit that I'm lucky  to get access to the infield on the Mulsanne (you still have to be nice to the gendarmes and stewards, or you don't see anything), but even without that there are good viewing spots and they have been considerably improved this year. As for "milk for the drivers" and other drivel you come up with, I happened to be where the Lamborghini stopped on the circuit on Sunday afternoon. I got to put my head virtually into the cockpit. It was like an oven - no exageration. How those guys race in those temperatures and remain conscious, I have no idea.
Your ideas about Europe seem to have been borrowed from George Bush. An occasional visit does not make you an expert. Keep your candy up your own ass, engage your hillybilly brain and start talking out of your mouth for a change.

[termietermite]

Cheers kpy, monkey et al.  I live here and I find the French's oppinions as varied as our own but don't hear anything like the amount of xenophobic drivel I read here, whether it's said "tongue in cheek" or not.  Having watched motor racing in all its forms since I was 5, I too have seen some pretty horific accidents both to spectators and drivers.  The fewer of these there are the better.  I would love to go back to the old days in terms of the views I got but in the end the great thing is to know that far more drivers survive accidents and spins than did in the old days.  Our heros of today are reaching 50+ and still driving (quite competitively in some cases).
Candy-asses rule OK. 

[Fax]

Great rant KPY!  Ouch! the comparison to Bush smarts, but I take being called a hillbilly a compliment.  Sorry if you don't like my being critical your sacred cow, just calling it like I see it.  Simply put, compared to the other venues I go, the spectating is very poor.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, ours differ.
Fax

[termietermite]

Simply put, compared to the other venues I go, the spectating is very poor.

Like where?  I admit Spa is good but for god's sake it's in the mountains.  Suppose you want the ACO to build some of those too?

[monkey]

Great rant KPY!  Ouch! the comparison to Bush smarts, but I take being called a hillbilly a compliment.  Sorry if you don't like my being critical your sacred cow, just calling it like I see it.  Simply put, compared to the other venues I go, the spectating is very poor.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, ours differ.
Fax

Fax, your opinion is based on out of date information I'm afraid. The article was sh*t, and I am surprised that anyone would want to put on any site, less alone this one.

[Kpy]

Great rant KPY!  Ouch! the comparison to Bush smarts, but I take being called a hillbilly a compliment.  Sorry if you don't like my being critical your sacred cow, just calling it like I see it.  Simply put, compared to the other venues I go, the spectating is very poor.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, ours differ.
Fax

No you're not a hillybilly, but you and Bush share the brains of one. You may think you are calling it how it is, but that's just ignorance. If safety is my sacred cow, well I'd rather my friend Steve still had his leg and his friend were still alive, but you carry on calling it how you see it.
Your original post was "someone else thinking like me" - well he thinks nonsense, and he can't write either!
 Give me a call next time you're coming to Le Mans and I'll show you where to spectate, including a place with no debris fencing, waist-high armco and twenty metres from the track - 100% legal.

[Fax]

No, refering to the North American circuits I attend, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Road America, IMS etc. In all seriousness, none of the circuits I've mentioned have any had spectator safety issues.
Road Atlanta had become quite dangerous for the competitors at the speeds IMSA GTP cars were racing at but the multi-million dollar facelift a few years ago resloved all of that nicely and its still a majestic spectator venue.  All of them are very safe for the competitors (witness Pedro Lamy's flight in May at Mid-Ohio) but still afford the spectators terrific vantage points.
Fax

[Steve Pyro]

I consider one obvious difference to the Le Mans 24 Hour circuit and most US circuits to be the length of a lap at LM and the fact that there are some long straight areas where potential speeds can be very high.

Le Mans is around 8.5 miles whereas Sebring is (from memory) a third of that, all tucked into itself on a flat elevation with shorter straights and (in proportion to it's length) more corners.

Geographically, Le Mans covers more acreage without any reversals in the circuit tucking it into itself like at Sebring.

A closer analogy to a similar US circuit would be the LM Bugatti circuit.  This has many corners (for it's length) and less catch fencing.  The raised areas and semi amphitheatre geography of the Chapelle areas would make viewing and photo opportunities on a par to, in my opinion, Sebring.

[Kpy]

A closer analogy to a similar US circuit would be the LM Bugatti circuit.  This has many corners (for it's length) and less catch fencing.  The raised areas and semi amphitheatre geography of the Chapelle areas would make viewing and photo opportunities on a par to, in my opinion, Sebring.

Spot on Steve. On the Bugatti circuit you get very good uninterupted views of and into the cars. Shame it's the original Mickey Mouse circuit, though. I think it was Graham Hill who coined the phrase in July 1967.

[termietermite]

Will be good to see the DTMs and the Oreca Saleens tackling the Bugatti in October.  It certainly is a good circuit for photography and get some good shots of the cars coming under kpy's bridge with the video camera on the tripod.  Pits grandstand is good too although you get fit running back and forth to catch sight of the cars on both sides of the grandstand!

[Fax]

Apologies all around to those I have offended on this thread the past few days.  After going back and reading them, yes I was being a complete w**k*r!
And yes, your right that column is utter crap.  Felt like stirring up the pot a bit but crossed way over the bounds of good taste.  Just being an Ugly American!
But I do think Bush is a complete dickhead, so I should get a few points for that.
Cheers all,
Hillbilly Bush Ugly American Fax

[Fax]

Hey! I did better than "silly person", the abusive language police nailed me again.  Who's running this show?
Fax

[termietermite]

Can definately have 100 points for the Bush remark in my book.

[Rhino]

I did think viewing was getting worse. I used to spend the night watching from the Cafe on the straight. It was truly mesmerising watching the Jags and Porches thunder past at over 200mph, if only i had a video camera then!
It still was not to bad with the chicanes as they came past and stood on the brakes. I started to get peeved when they put up the fencing, but watching one night a chunk of tyre rubber hit the fence in front of me so i could see why.
I stopped watching there when they wouldn't let you stand by the outside armco, only behind another fence so there was a brief glimpse of car going by.
I still cannot see why they stop you looking at the cars heading into Indianapolis.
The Porche curves viewing is not bad, like the very end where you can see the cars coming from Arnarge.
The dunlop chicane is a joke, how much gravel is in that.
The run down from the bridge i do like, i thought it wouldn't but it's not bad.
On the inside of the Esses you could stand at the top of the new bank and see from the Bridge to the Mulsanne.
I suppose we could post on the ACO site they may do something.
And rant on Fax, always good posts