American Sarthe Trekers

[Kpy]

I suppose at the end of the day my frustration comes with seeing the once mighty Circuit de la Sarthe reduced to a Scalextric track in a large sandbox, in other words a formula 1 circuit.

I think we share the same opinions at heart, Fax. The way things are going we'll end up with a sort of giant Bugatti circuit. You'll find Clermont-Ferrand at http://www.charade.fr/ .
By the way I'm a founder member of Les Amis des Circuits d'Antan, an association of guys (girls welcome) interested in seeking out the old road circuits in France, along with a bit of eating and drinking. Membership is open to anyone who's interested. I suppose I'd better get a website going - we started up a few years ago now.

[Jonnyspa27]

Nordic, agreed bout Nye, one of the very best historians of the sport, as you very well put it, no hidden agenda invloved, gives a very honest and straightforward read.  He's fantastic with marque  and chassis history. His book Lotus, The Formula 1, Indy and Tasman Cars is THE definitive volume on the subject.
Fax

I've read both Autocourse books on GP cars from 1950-1965? Along with the following book from 66-92. Facinating reads with so much tech info its almost unbelievable!
Fax you were discussing US tracks that have fallen by the wayside, I think Winchester or Salem has gone under IIRC? I thought Tony Stewart was looking to help refirbish that facility as well. I can remember when Rich Vogler hustled his Hoffman #69 around both places. The fastest 1/2 miles in the world, truly astonishing. Unfortunately Salem is where Rich met his maker while leading....As far as Le Sarthe getting homogonized, where do you draw that line between a classical feel of the circuit of old and still keep it safe for cars today? Anyone?

[Fax]

No, Winchester and Salem are both still alive and kicking. In fact planning on going the April Winchester round for the USAC Sprints.  Stewart purchased the Eldora Speedway last year and sunk a pile of money into it.  All are very historic old venues where the legends of Indycar racing cut their teeth going all the way back to Bill Vukovich, Troy Ruttman, Roger Ward, and Jimmy Bryan through the more recent legends of Foyt, Rutherford (Eldora is where Johnny was so badly injured in the sixties) and Mario, up to todays stars like Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart.
As far as Le Mans? They crossed over the line a long time ago.
Fax

[Jonnyspa27]

Ah good to hear about the high banks in Indiana...But my question is what changes were made to the track that made it lose it's (my words) 'soul'? the one major one I think is putting the chicanes on the Mulsanne. Maison Blanche was a dauntingly fast and dangerous part of the circuit too. So where does one make the judgement, 'hey we've got to make safety improvements but not here because the circuit's integredy will be lost...'? Examples please from anyone, I'm interested. 

[Steve Pyro]

Jonny, thanks quite a challenging question.

Some would say the circuit lost it's character when they scrapped the long run up to the hairpin at Pont Lieue!  Or when they removed the hay bales from the sides and put up Armco.

I personally feel some of the more recent changes at corners have been ill-conceived, with acres of gravel run-offs and high fencing.
However (Mulsanne chicanes aside) the majority of that work centres around parts of the classic circuit that are incorporated within the Bugatti.

The right hander at Arnage Corner still has little or no run offs and protection and the whole route from Mulsanne Corner to the Porsche Curves is still bounded by nice grass verges and sees high speeds.
No real changes have been made to this section before or since the flying Mercs of 1999

Regarding the Mulsanne chicanes, the N138 has seen a fair amount of development as a public road, there are now roadabouts at intersections with cross roads and retail areas have been built quite close to the edge of the road.  My guess is the chicanes were put in, as well as to limit the top speed of the cars, to prevent any nasty incidents to the buildings and properties along the route.

[Nordic]

Its worth remembering that Le Mans has had more than its fair share of tragic accidents to both the public and drivers.

Which this in mind one could forgive the ACO for being a bit more cautious and maybe over protection at some sections of the track where the public have access. The high fences where there on the start straight and elsewhere in 1980 for my first vist then where removed for about 5 years before being replaced by more sturdy type. While I accept no fence is going to prevent a car going into the tribunes, it may hold back some debris some it could be argued they is a place for them.

As for changing the layout, as Steve B has already said, the track has seen so many changes it would be hard to pinpoint the perfect layout.

Some of the changes have led to problems elsewhere, for example, before the chicanes where added, all cars ran a low downforce setup. This restricted there performance on the twisty sections of the track and kept the speeds down.
After the chicanes where introduced cars ran higher downforce and the rest of the track speeded up.

My favorite section of the track used to be the esses and the dunlop curve. Both of these have now gone at the behest of the MotoGP riders who seem to have forgotten they can use the brakes. We now have a tighter Dunlop chicane that I think will lead to more crashes and the esses have been replaced by a souless set of sweeps that on any other track would be good but are no where near as good as before on this grand track.

[Kpy]

No real changes have been made to this section before or since the flying Mercs of 1999

Er, not so. Vast roadworks were carried out a few years ago to remove the "hump" and prevent  the aerobatics.

[Steve Pyro]

The Mulsanne hump yes, but has there been any changes to the Indianannopolis take off area as in my post regarding the section between Mulsanne Corner and Porsche curves?

[Kpy]

Steve - sorry my error, your picture of Webber had me think you meant that bit. I think you'll find they've flattened the corresponding hump before Indianapolis (part of one long ridge), too. Also a vast run-off area has been built before the following right hander and the spectators' view of cars approaching the Arnage viewing area is blocked off for ever.
The chicanes were inserted on the Mulsanne in order to comply with FIA regulations about length of straights, so as to keep the circuit's license. They destroyed the challenge of the kink. Ask Henri Pescarolo what he thinks of the Mulsanne these days - he'll tell you that they've removed the soul from Le Mans.
Mulsanne corner was ruined when they put the roundabout in and by-passed it for the race, easing the angle of the corner.
Tertre Rouge is being messed up right now, Dunlop is being screwed up even more than before. The new section after Dunlop allows better viewing of the cars in a corner, but wrecks the classic approach to the Esses - the spectator area on the inside of the entry to the Esses is long gone.
Only Arnage and the Esses resemble the circuit I remember from the '60s.
Really it was the building of the Bugatti circuit which allowed the ACO to mess around as they liked - they hold all those meetings throughout the year, including two 'bike Internationals. That brings in cash.
The new pits and paddock were no doubt necessary, but it was such fun to stand on the balcony above the pits at night and watch the cars being worked on, right into the '80s.
We can never reconstruct the past, and none of us wants to see another driver killed, but the ACO is doing its best to turn the 24 Hours circuit into something like a modern GP track with lack of consideration for the paying public included  .
 

[BigH]

Morning Chaps,
IMO the best era for the circuit layout was the mid 80's.
The Porsche curves were a challenging replacement for the dangerous Maison Blanche.
The world famous Mulsanne and it's kink was just fabulous, challenging for the designers, tacticians and drivers. One of my most enduring memories of the race is standing behind the armco at the kink in the dark and watching Schumacher steer the merc through absolutely flat out, with the rear end right on the edge of traction, lap after lap. I know there was a safety issue with the straight KPY, but I seem to remember that the particular safety issue in question was politically generated in a spat between FIA and J-M Bastardo.
The section from the top of the pit straight to the Esses is just a joke now, I can't think of anything in it's favour, from either a spectator or a drivers viewpoint. I'd love to discuss it's merits with the ACO. Arnage still survives, but the spectators have been pushed back a long way, and as you say, there is no longer any access to Indianapolis (and didn't they change the superelevation of the track as well?), which is a high speed approach. I believe it's the fastest part of the track these days and the spectators aren't allowed on the corner or near the braking points???
Until now, a good spot to spectate was just outside the track at Tetre Rouge, watching the drivers set the cars up for the corner and then get on the power for the staright, but it sounds like that opportunity is gone.
Let's face it, it's not a spectator friendly race.
H

[Fax]

Morning All,
You guys seem to have pretty well it on the screws with your responses to Johnny question.  For a sporting venue to have "soul" it needs two essential ingredients, history and something distinct that separates from just another venue.  The Sarthe circut had that both in spades for decades.  However over the fifteen years or sp the ACO have done everything in their power to destroy that essential character.  The circut used to require a very unique, high speed, low drag setup, one which was seen nowhere else the rest of the year.  With the addition of the Dunlop and Mulsanne chicanes its become just another point & squirt type of track.  Over the years the ACO have also seen fit to demolish any of the landmarks that maintain links with the past.  Many of the charismatic old tribunes and vantage points are now gone, resigned to memory.  They replaced the legendary old pit buildings in 1991 with a steel & glass complex that is both ugly and soulless, don't understand why they didn't do what was done at Sebring and replace the old structure with a new one that looks like the old one.  As I said, its all about tradition and continuity.
And has been well documented, the spectating has gone to hell.  It was dreadful spectating when I first went in 1996 and it was far worse last time I went in '02.
Fax

[Kpy]

I know there was a safety issue with the straight KPY, but I seem to remember that the particular safety issue in question was politically generated in a spat between FIA and J-M Bastardo.

Yes indeed, and I'm no fan of the current Mulsanne. The chicanes were installed as a result of blackmail.

The section from the top of the pit straight to the Esses is just a joke now, I can't think of anything in it's favour, from either a spectator or a drivers viewpoint. I'd love to discuss it's merits with the ACO. Arnage still survives, but the spectators have been pushed back a long way, and as you say, there is no longer any access to Indianapolis (and didn't they change the superelevation of the track as well?), which is a high speed approach. I believe it's the fastest part of the track these days and the spectators aren't allowed on the corner or near the braking points???
Until now, a good spot to spectate was just outside the track at Tetre Rouge, watching the drivers set the cars up for the corner and then get on the power for the staright, but it sounds like that opportunity is gone.
Let's face it, it's not a spectator friendly race.

I agree with all that. I used to love watching at the limit of the spectator area at the entrance to Tetre Rouge, particularly in PQ, and the Esses were my favourite spot of all. The view up the track from the Arnage enclosure to see the cars approaching at high speed and braking for the right-hander was something else. Yup, they changed the superelevation of the track there as well.
As for your discussions with the ACO - I'd love to be there, but they are not good listeners.
Take me back to the early '80s !!!

[Kpy]

  They replaced the legendary old pit buildings in 1991 with a steel & glass complex that is both ugly and soulless, don't understand why they didn't do what was done at Sebring and replace the old structure with a new one that looks like the old one.  As I said, its all about tradition and continuity.

I'm afraid it's easy to explain. The fonctionnaires of the ACO have a very high self/spectator importance ratio. The steel and glass thingy represents them to a T. Bunch of tossers, to use a technical term.

[Lorry]

don't understand why they didn't do what was done at Sebring and replace the old structure with a new one that looks like the old one. 

Wot, without corporate hospitality opportunities.

This world is run by two people.  Mr Health and Safety, and Mr Corporate Hospitality, and the rest of us can go hang.

[Fax]

I still think they could have incorporated poser boxes into a complex that had the look and feel of the old one.  Sebring has boxes up there.