London Again!

[smokie]

While I am in agreement with many of the comments above (well said Andy!) can posters please ensure that comments could not be interpreted in such a way as to bring this web site into conflict with the law. This includes racial/sexual/religious discrimination, incitement. I am all for free speech but within the laws of the land.

Please also be conscious that we may have innocent members who are part of the groups being held responsible for these atrocities and I don't want to offend any of our readers!

As before, suspect posts will be deleted without warning or apology.

[chrisbeatty]

Chris, have you been reading the sodding Guardian again?

Not since this morning Andy, no!! I've been too busy doing my pre-season training for Newcastle?!? (I hope you remember that discussion cos I was as drunk as a lord & have vague memories still!!)

...

Finally, IMHO Livingstone is a total hypocritical tw at. He floods London with God knows who and then bleats when his great social experiment blows up in his (or more accurately, Londoner's) faces. His crocodile tears made me utterly sick last week. The reason the fundamentalists hate us is a combination of jealousy and frustration. It has bugger all to do with Iraq or Afghanistan(convenient excuse tho it is). No, it's to do with an inbred hatred of the West and all it stands for. These people hate our liberty, our lifestyles, our Godlessness, our wealth, our ingenuity, in short, our sucess. They base their lives on a literal interpretation of a 15th century credo and are frustrated when it proves incompatible with the modern world. So, without the Christian peoples all converting to Islam, there's probably little we can do other than keep our eyes peeled and report suspicious activity to the authorities.

I agree the bloke is far from a saint (closer to a sinner really??) & there's been plenty of times I'd like to see him out of public life, but I happen to agree with him on this one.
It's not entirely about the wars, but some of the problem stems from our input in many areas of the world stretching back over the last hundred years (quite possibly more) that we sometimes never hear of. Granted they hate what we have & the fact that they don't have it, but when our rich corporations & their shareholders are making record profits from oil which was obtained from their country & they don't even have running water it would kinda pi*s you off wouldn't it??
It is certainly a minority that suffer from these delusions & you'll always get animosity from someone anywhere in the world. It is sad that it's the general public who suffer most when these awful events take place & our thoughts always go to those who suffer the pain that is caused.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, but I look forward to your articulate reply!!

[Nordic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

Holy sh*t. They shot the wrong guy.

[garystout]

Makes me wonder why any innocent person would run away from armed police though

[Brad Zarse]

Im going to add my (proabably worthless) and unashamedly biased view on that one.

The facts as I understand them are that the guy RAN away from armed police having been asked to stop 5 times. He was acting suspiciously, he looked to be carrying something suspicious around his stomach and on his back.

We are on HIGH ALERT. Anyone who doesn't understand that following the last couple of weeks needs thier head examined.

When on high alert, if you are told to stop by a man with a gun, you fecking well stop....

Its a split second decision, the police wouldnt have shot without a genuine reason to suspect the guy, and as I say, this country is on high alert.

My opinion is that the police did a good job yesterday - i'd rather have 1 innocent person shot, than face the possibility of genuine terror and the loss of completely innocent life.....

Maybe this was the best way of demonstrating to everyone that we are not F***ing around here - stop when you're told to, and then only people with genuinely evil intentions will get hurt.

Look after yourselfs and stick together guys - the world feels like its gone a little crazy just at the moment.

Brad

[Bob U]

Totally agree with you Brad. We, as a country are at war with these terrorists and unfortunatly war produces innocent casualties and this guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He should have stopped when challenged, why he didn't God only knows. But it sure gives out a stong message to the bombers, f**k with us and you die.

[smokie]

That's all very well, and I totally agree with you - as long as it's someone else's loved one who is the innocent victim.

I am usually completely supportive of the police but the eyewitness accounts from Friday indicate that although there was a lot of signs that he was trying to evade arrest, IMO the police could have "contained" him (well, they pretty much already had) without unloading a gun into him at close range.

Have you seen some of the plain clothes police? If I didn't fully understand the local language, I'd run from them too!!

It's a tricky one...

[garystout]

Hmmmm, i think the word STOP POLICE is pretty universal i think

[Nordic]

The guy came from the slums of Sao Paulo, where the police have a different approach to the normal UK one, I don't think you do always stop for the police there.

Who knows why he ran, he may have heard the shout, but as he was being pursured by a large group he may well of thought they where the ones being told to stop. I am sure the cop that shoot him is having a few a few sleepless nights.

Whatever the ins and outs, The Police have admitted a mistake of id happened but restated the shoot to kill policy remains for the moment, which on balance is the only way to deal with a potential bomber and therefore IMHO correct.

[Pastis - team JPC]

In the good old days of the British Raj, terrorists used to be executed by being tied across the muzzle of a field gun, which was then fired!  I think the Royal Horse Artillery would be up for that, they must get fed up with just firing blanks all the time!?

But I really like the Shepherds Bush street party idea - why not have a Club Arnarge f**k the bombers party at the Argylle?

[Nobby Diesel]

Pastis - see the other thread "London De Brief". I'll bump it onto P1

[johnevans3]

Shoebomber Sentenced

Re: guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe
This guy was on an American Airlines 767
Remember the guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe and
tried to light it?
Did you know his trial is over?
Did you know he was sentenced?
Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV/Radio?
Didn't think so.
Everyone should hear what the judge had to say.  Ruling by Judge William
Young, US District Court.  Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything to say.

His response: After admitting his guilt to the court for the record, Reid
also admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of Allah,"defiantly stated "I think I will not apologize for my actions," and told the court "I am at war with your country."

Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below:
January 30, 2003, United States vs. Reid. Judge Young: "Mr. Richard C. Reid,
hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you.  On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General.
On counts 2, 3, 4 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each
count, the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other. That's 80 years. On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory 30 years consecutive to the 80 years just imposed.  The court imposes upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate fine of $2 million.  The Court accepts the government's recommendation with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of $298.17 to Andre
Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines.

The Court imposes upon you the $800 special assessment. The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply because the law requires it.  But the life sentences are real life sentences so I need go no further.  This is the sentence that is provided for by our statutes.  It is a fair and just sentence.  It is a righteous sentence.

Let me explain this to you.  We are not afraid of you or any of your
terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid.  We are Americans.  We have been through the fire before.  There is all too much war talk here and I say that to everyone with the utmost respect.
 
Here in this court, we deal with individuals as individuals and care for individuals as individuals.  As human beings, we reach out for justice. You are not an enemy combatant.  You are a terrorist.  You are not a soldier in any war.  You are a terrorist.
 
To give you that reference, to call you a soldier, gives you far too much stature. Whether it is the officers of government who do it or your attorney
who does it, or if you think you are a soldier, you are not--you are a
terrorist.  And we do not negotiate with terrorists.  We do not meet with terrorists.  We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice. So war talk is way out of line in this court.

You are a big fellow. But you are not that big.  You're no warrior.  I've
know warriors.  You are a terrorist.  A species of criminal that is guilty of multiple attempted murders. 

In a very real sense, State Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews were, and he said: "You're no big deal." You are no big deal.

What your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so horrific.  What was it that led you here to this courtroom today?
 
I have listened respectfully to what you have to say.  And I ask you to search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing.  And I have
an answer for you.
 
It may not satisfy you, but as search this entire record, it comes as close to understanding as I know. It seems to me you hate the one thing that to us is most precious. You hate our freedom.  Our individual freedom.  Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose.  Here, in this society, the very wind carries freedom.  It carries it everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom.

So that everyone can see, truly see, that justice is administered fairly, individually, and discretely.  It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other judges.

We Americans are all about freedom.  Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties. Make no mistake though.  It is yet true that we will bare any burden; pay any price, to preserve our freedoms.
 
Look around this courtroom. Mark it well.  The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here.  Day after tomorrow, it will be forgotten, but this, however, will long endure.  Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice, not war, individual justice is in fact being done.

 The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice.

See that flag, Mr. Reid?  That's the flag of the United States of America
That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom.  And it always will. Mr. Custody Officer.  Stand him down.

God bless freedom loving people everywhere!!!!!!

[Matt Harper]

Makes me wonder why any innocent person would run away from armed police though

Word on the news here is that he was an illegal immigrant (his visa had expired), so may have been fearful of deportation. Also claims he was an electrician and had all manner of wire and sh*t on his person, which may have caused some alarm to already antsy LEO's.
It's tragic that an innocent get's wasted - but in the circumstances, ignoring the commands of the police are going to get you taken down, everyone must realise this.

[Nordic]

Its worth pointing out that the police doing the chasing. thought that the guy had a bomb straped to himself, yet they carried on to the point of getting close enough to take him down.

How many of the people complaining today and calling the police murderers would chase, let alone pile onto someone they thought might have bomb in an effort to protect others?

[Kate Shaw]

That's all very well, and I totally agree with you - as long as it's someone else's loved one who is the innocent victim.

I am usually completely supportive of the police but the eyewitness accounts from Friday indicate that although there was a lot of signs that he was trying to evade arrest, IMO the police could have "contained" him (well, they pretty much already had) without unloading a gun into him at close range.

Have you seen some of the plain clothes police? If I didn't fully understand the local language, I'd run from them too!!

It's a tricky one...

The man, according to his family, spoke fluent English and was able to understand everything that was said to him.  That was not a problem.

My nephews, with whom I have travelled frequently, have been drilled with the idea that you obey the cops, never sass border guards (even by making taunting remarks about how your hockey team just demolished theirs), and stop when anyone with a gun says STOP.  Although one of them is still (at age 19) inclined to think remarks like "Oh, you mean BESIDES this grenade in my shorts?" are funny, I think they got the point by the time they were ten years old.

I do wonder why the man in question was allowed to board a bus, though, if the cops thought he was that dangerous.  And if he knew people were chasing him, why didn't he head right for a police station?