Safety Car Periods

[clkgtrlm1]

Does anyone else think that the use of safety cars this year was a bit excessive?

I know this has been a more and more prevalent option over the last few years, and I am thinking back to the years when the Audis / Peugeots were running behind safety cars for long periods in the rain, but that is surely a realistic use of a safety cars..................................?
If we put the Allan Simonsen incident to one side (and God rest his soul by the way!), I think that putting out a whole course caution over an 8 mile circuit is a bit unnecessary for the more minor barrier repairs or for cleaning debris over a a span of a few hundred meters of track. IMHO.
Why can these smaller jobs not be conducted under double waved yellows?
AND Are the drivers really ignoring waved yellows to such an extent these days that this is not a viable option??

I would like to think that maybe the ACO / FIA made a conscious decision to "play safe" during the race because of the Simonsen incident, but then again it was happening during both practice and qually.

Thoughts please.
clk

[Grand_Fromage]

With such wet/dry/wet conditions and cars spinning off into barriers, it was inevitable that safety car periods would be necessary. If barriers need repair and cars need recovery, the marshals and safety barrier crews need to be protected. The question is... should that be a local yellow flag or a full course safety car?

The SC strategy has worked well in the WEC rounds so far, so I'm not surprised that it was used at Le Mans. The number and length of those interventions was down to the weather and track conditions.

[lofty]

see piglets post.ive seen marshals hit by cars still racing Under waved yellows at donny safty car makes sense.these people must be protected.no racing without them.if they dont trust the way the race is managed the might go do a safer sport.

[gatordad]

Maybe they can replace the rock-sized "gravel" with sand so the cars actually get stuck vs. catapulting over the pit and hitting the tire barrier.  (See Allan McNish, 2011)  It would relieve the course of sharp stones that inevitably cut tires and break windscreens.

At least use much smaller stones...you know...real gravel for the traps.

[clkgtrlm1]

see piglets post.ive seen marshals hit by cars still racing Under waved yellows at donny safty car makes sense.these people must be protected.no racing without them.if they dont trust the way the race is managed the might go do a safer sport.

I completely agree that the marshals safety is equally as important as the safety of the drivers.  There must be a better way of putting out a yellow signal than having marshals on the track for these incidents. Yellow lights on the back of the repair vehicles or mobile signs? ? All the cars have radio contact, so these situations COULD be avoided without having personnel physically on the track.

[nickliv]

Theres an optimum aggregate size for traps. Too large or small and theyre likely to allow the cars to run over the top of the trap rather than digging in and stopping. Aggregate shape also  has a part to play. Its not about using wjats cheapest or what falls to hand anymore either. The traps at LM are using the  optimum material. Ploughing huge ridges into them will increase the risk of a car either digging in and flipping or to using the 1st ridge as a ramp and flying.

Its it arguable  that the traps arent numerous or large enough at Le Mans but their composition isnt the issue.

As for armco, too resilient and the energy provided by the car is returned directly to the car, as we saw on Saturday,  although this was, on this sad occasion caused by the proximity of the tree. A barrier must be deformable otherwist it satisfies no energy dissipation function.  Once a barrier has been deformed its future resilience xannot be guaranteed,  so they must be replaced. If they were so strong that they didnt need replaced, we'd  sadly see more injuries and worse being contributed to by their properties than we see now with the 'brie' armco.

As piglet said in the new winner thread, there is also the risk that with energy absorbing materials such as tyres, theres a risk that a car will be bounced back into traffic in the event of an impact.

The problem at LM is that the majority of the land outwith the track isnt owned by the ACO and that extending runoff and altering barriers isnt the 'no brainer' at other locations.  Perhaps returning TR to an earlier line might sufficiently mitigate the risk as a starter.

There is no easy fix, but that is no reason to put the problem on the 'too difficult' pile.

[gatordad]

I guess we all just have to remember that racing is dangerous and that people die in wrecks and come to grips with it.

Who would have thought that Dale Earnhardt would have died in the innocuous looking wreck he was in?  And the Senna wreck didn't look that bad either.

[jimclark]

I guess we all just have to remember that racing is dangerous and that people die in wrecks and come to grips with it.

Who would have thought that Dale Earnhardt would have died in the innocuous looking wreck he was in?  And the Senna wreck didn't look that bad either.

Agreed.

I'm not all that cold hearted, but, I've written before in many places that when we make racing antseptic as we're headed, it ain't gonna be no fun to watch anymore.

Virtual race cars will not excite me.

[Boorish Grobian]

Jim, really I wouldn't have thought you felt that way.  After all, I thought you bought the farm in the cold rain at Hockenheim in '68, on a tree lined, high speed circuit, with no barrriers, protection, nothing.  I guess all along you were hanging out with Elvis, and Jim Morrison at the 7-Eleven in Kalamzoo.  I mean really, it is you Jim?  Who seriously would be as disrespectful as to take the name of the sainted Scot as their user name on a chat forum?
Guess you didn't see the footage from the Grand-Am CTC race at Mid-Ohio two weeks ago when the Mutlimatic Aston Vantage shunted heavily into the tire barrier on the approach the Keyhole?  Travelling at the higher clip than AS was at Terte Rouge in a similar Aston. Big difference, tire barriers, the wall didn't have f**k*ng tree planted six inches behind it.
Where are you going Gatordad?  Big E died because Ironhead refused to wear his harnesses mounted the way Simpson Safety advised, (that and his desire to wear a open face helmet) sealed his fate in what was a massive head on shunt, into a pre-safety barrier cement wall.  And just curious?  What didn't you find bad looking about Senna's shunt?  Spearing off into the cement wall, at a 45 degree angle the old Tamburello Corner at close to 200 MPH!
Look guys, I'm as old school as anyone on here, But the fact that in this day & age, in a race (not just a race, a sporting event) as significant as th LM 24Hrs, the fact that a car was allowed to hit a unprotected armco barrier, mounted a few inches from a stout tree, at a high speed, borders on criminal negligence.
Just curious again!  The LM 24Hrs is a WEC round right?  How does the Circuit de la Sarthe comply with the FIA safety standards regarding world championship venues?
Fax

[Robbo]

I think the slightly excessive safety car usage might have been a reaction to the incident that happened at the Canadian GP that sadly took the life of a marshal.

That incident took place under local waved yellow flags rather than a safety car.

Lessons do need to be learned from the Allan Simonsen incident. Nobody should die in vain on a circuit.
A couple of years ago, we could be having the same conversation had Rockenfeller hit a different part of the armco at Tetre Rouge.

Do you remove the trees and ruin the "iconic" look of that corner??

Surely a length of Steel and Foam Energy Reduction (SAFER) Barrier would improve that armco, cover it in advertising and you wouldn't even know it was there!

[Lazy B'stard]

No doubt they will make alterations to Tetre Rouge before next years race. The recent alterations were, I believe a result of the new tram line/terminus. Sadly it resulted in a corner that is now taken virtually flat out if you are to get a gun run down the first part of the hunadieres, but with very little protection should it go wrong due to its proximity to the public road. It's unlikely that the old profile will be returned so we'll probably get a chicane.

As for the SC car situation. As I suggested in another thread, surely there is a way of limiting the cars speed electronically from Race Control? Restrict the speed of the cars to 30kmh in the effected area and allow racing to continue on the rest of the circuit?

Si

[lofty]

what we dont want is a knee jerk reaction like imola in 94 with 5 chicanes.better run off.or these days the fancy new impact asorbing barrier.i know all drivers use the HANS system but air bags be used in race cars.in moto gp some guys have in inflation jackets to cusion impact.seems like a cunning plan to me.

[jimclark]

Jim, really I wouldn't have thought you felt that way.  After all, I thought you bought the farm in the cold rain at Hockenheim in '68, on a tree lined, high speed circuit, with no barrriers, protection, nothing.  I guess all along you were hanging out with Elvis, and Jim Morrison at the 7-Eleven in Kalamzoo.  I mean really, it is you Jim?  Who seriously would be as disrespectful as to take the name of the sainted Scot as their user name on a chat forum?
Fax

Quality and class....who could ask for anything more???....

[Brad Zarse]

Jim, really I wouldn't have thought you felt that way.  After all, I thought you bought the farm in the cold rain at Hockenheim in '68, on a tree lined, high speed circuit, with no barrriers, protection, nothing.  I guess all along you were hanging out with Elvis, and Jim Morrison at the 7-Eleven in Kalamzoo.  I mean really, it is you Jim?  Who seriously would be as disrespectful as to take the name of the sainted Scot as their user name on a chat forum?
Guess you didn't see the footage from the Grand-Am CTC race at Mid-Ohio two weeks ago when the Mutlimatic Aston Vantage shunted heavily into the tire barrier on the approach the Keyhole?  Travelling at the higher clip than AS was at Terte Rouge in a similar Aston. Big difference, tire barriers, the wall didn't have f**k*ng tree planted six inches behind it.
Where are you going Gatordad?  Big E died because Ironhead refused to wear his harnesses mounted the way Simpson Safety advised, (that and his desire to wear a open face helmet) sealed his fate in what was a massive head on shunt, into a pre-safety barrier cement wall.  And just curious?  What didn't you find bad looking about Senna's shunt?  Spearing off into the cement wall, at a 45 degree angle the old Tamburello Corner at close to 200 MPH!
Look guys, I'm as old school as anyone on here, But the fact that in this day & age, in a race (not just a race, a sporting event) as significant as th LM 24Hrs, the fact that a car was allowed to hit a unprotected armco barrier, mounted a few inches from a stout tree, at a high speed, borders on criminal negligence.
Just curious again!  The LM 24Hrs is a WEC round right?  How does the Circuit de la Sarthe comply with the FIA safety standards regarding world championship venues?
Fax

Brace yourself.  I can't find anything to disagree on in this post.
The only thing I would say is that the presence of the tree and its location/proximity to the Armco is not currently "fact" - although far too many people have mentioned it for it to be a co-incidence.

[jimclark]

Brace yourself.  I can't find anything to disagree on in this post.
 

Whooopp-dee-dooo....