Deltawing crash at Road Atlanta

[Barry]

I was very sceptical about the DW project when it was first announced, however I  thought it was great when it appeared at LM, and was cheering it on. I eat my words about it not coping with turns and the Mulsanne, and keeping up with the pace.
However I think my comment about it having problems coping with the rough and tumble of racing is unfortunately coming true.
It's demise at LM and Road Atlanta have been similar, other cars not seeing it, and when it's hit, it's so light that it comes off second best.
Sad, because it's a great project.

[Shortcut]

I was very sceptical about the DW project when it was first announced, however I  thought it was great when it appeared at LM, and was cheering it on. I eat my words about it not coping with turns and the Mulsanne, and keeping up with the pace.
However I think my comment about it having problems coping with the rough and tumble of racing is unfortunately coming true.
It's demise at LM and Road Atlanta have been similar, other cars not seeing it, and when it's hit, it's so light that it comes off second best.
Sad, because it's a great project.

I too was sceptical about the DW project, but you have to give new concepts a chance, and I was happy to see it doing well at Le Mans in it own invented class, until it had the unfortunate crash with the Toyota.  We can debate for a long time whose fault this accident was, but the most alarming fact is just how easily the DW flipped over in an incident that would have seen any other car just spin.  For those of us without the necessary factual data, we can only guess at what actually happened, but this does need to be looked at by the proper authorities, and the thought of a whole class or possibly field of these cars in future years of racing chills me to the bone. 

[Boorish Grobian]

This was something I don't think many of us saw coming.  I always saw it as a PR stunt, now it's a dangerous one!  If the turkey gets turned sideways, it rolls like a beer keg!
God help the poor bastard who straps himself into it!
Fax

[Barry]

The same Porshe that mullered the DW took out the race leader at Petit around 2 hours in. IIRC.
I am a great supporter of Gentleman drivers, without them sports car racing would be a much poorer place, if it existed at all.
But please make sure they have an eye test before they race!

[Jules G]

Video over on Pistonheads of the Delta Wing being test driven by Chris Harris following the Petit Le Mans race weekend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c_INdbXMqsw

[Grand_Fromage]

You can keep Chris Harris' contribution, but I was fascinated by Ben Bowlby's explanation of how it works.

Video over on Pistonheads of the Delta Wing being test driven by Chris Harris following the Petit Le Mans race weekend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c_INdbXMqsw

[Brad Zarse]

Great video! 

I like Chris Harris - not because I think he's Mr Charisma, but because that's the third or fourth video I've seen of his where I've thought "this little sod is living my dreams!"

Ben Bowlbys explanation is fascinating.  The fact that it finished 5th at PLM (I didn't get to watch the race so I don't know if this was a great performance, or an inherited position through circumstance) should really shut the doubters up. 

Fax's opinion that this is a "Big PR stunt" should now be silenced as well - They've proven that the car is able to compete at the highest level speed wise (note the claim that the car is faster on the back straight than an LMP1) and does so whilst acheiving efficiency figures beyond the wildest dreams of many, much bigger, better funded teams. 

So now I'm intruiged.  What is the next step for Deltawing? 

Personally I'd like to see it at Le-Mans again next year, perhaps with 3 or 4 others, to then allow it to be classified officially. 

I'm also keen to see how this technology and innovation can be stepped into the road car arena - I have a suspicion that we could be seeing a signficant change in road car attitudes shortly - perhaps not in the style of Deltawing, but based on some of its fundamental values.

[Grand_Fromage]

I think that the DW is not in itself going to be the shape of the future, but what it has done so effectively, is challenge the accepted philosophy of how a car should work. BMW make a big deal out of a 50-50 weight distribution, and here is a car that totally contradicts that idea, and what is more, it does it with relatively conventional materials and technology, just used in an innovative way. It has opened minds, and confounded its detractors, critics and sceptics. I think it is a marvellous design exercise, the results of which will slowly percolate into more conventional looking cars.  

Great video!  

I like Chris Harris - not because I think he's Mr Charisma, but because that's the third or fourth video I've seen of his where I've thought "this little sod is living my dreams!"

Ben Bowlbys explanation is fascinating.  The fact that it finished 5th at PLM (I didn't get to watch the race so I don't know if this was a great performance, or an inherited position through circumstance) should really shut the doubters up.  

Fax's opinion that this is a "Big PR stunt" should now be silenced as well - They've proven that the car is able to compete at the highest level speed wise (note the claim that the car is faster on the back straight than an LMP1) and does so whilst acheiving efficiency figures beyond the wildest dreams of many, much bigger, better funded teams.  

So now I'm intruiged.  What is the next step for Deltawing?  

Personally I'd like to see it at Le-Mans again next year, perhaps with 3 or 4 others, to then allow it to be classified officially.  

I'm also keen to see how this technology and innovation can be stepped into the road car arena - I have a suspicion that we could be seeing a signficant change in road car attitudes shortly - perhaps not in the style of Deltawing, but based on some of its fundamental values.

[Robbo]

I absolutely love this little car now, actually I loved it at Le Mans too! - Ben Bowlby is a genius!
I would love to watch an argument between him & Adrian Newey!

I think Indycar missed a trick not going with this design - Can you imagine 35 of them on track!

Oh no, I forgot, how the hell would Fax and his brigade get their heads around that! 

I would support a 500kgs class at Le Mans!

[Rhino]

Still don't like it. At the moment it's running to it's own set of rules. If they had a 500kg class with set rules then we will see.
It's quick because it uses big underfloor tunnels that are excellent at producing downforce for little drag. These are restricted in other classes meaning they run wings which produce downforce and drag, meaning it's quick in a straight line.
I get the idea, the weight distribution and the front wheels only needing to turn the car is clever. It's also allowed (although i believe they didn't use them at Le Mans) moveable aero flaps at the back and a trick diff.
If it ran regulation tunnels and was as quick then i would be interested.
Sorry Brad as for transferring to road cars they are already making them lighter and can run movable aero, tunnels(although smaller ones) and trick diffs.
Until they have a 500kg class where there they have set rules where it can run against others then i won't be interested.

[Boorish Grobian]

Robbo, actually they start 33 at Indy.  The reason Indycar didn't go with the Delta Wing is simple, they needed to go with a proven manufacturer, and design practice.  When the Delta Wing was floated to Indycar it was still just a concept, it had yet to turn a wheel, or be built for that matter.  It would still be blown into the weeds by the current conventional Dallara, not even close.  Also, still some serious safety concerns to be addressed with the DW design.
Agree with GF, its a clever engineering concept, but the future of the sport?  Don't think so.
And as Rhino points out, it was running with a serious weight and aerodynamic advantages that flattered the design, and gave it advantages over the "regulation" cars.  Give the LMP's the same weight and aero regs as the DW?  Lets see how quick it really is.
Fax

[Shortcut]

A few people have raised some interesting points here. 

Brad Z states that the 5th place at Petit Le Mans "should really shut the doubters up", and "is faster on the back straight than an LMP1"  Well I think not I am afraid.  I am not going to criticise the design of the car, because clearly Ben is a very clever man, and has come up with a very clever design that works, but what is it for?  I have always been sceptical of the DW, simply because I could not see what it was for and what it was trying to achieve.  A 5th place at Petit is great if you were an underdog or small private team running in LMP1 or 2, to the same rules that everybody else is running to , but to invent your own class and then say how well you are doing against everybody else does not bear comparison.  How about if we were to invent another class for F1 cars, and then how many people would shout about how much grip they had in the corners?  If a 500kg class were to be introduced, with more open rules than we have at the moment where designers were allowed more scope for development, I am sure we could see other designs embracing new technology, as the DW does not use new technology, it is a new concept using current technology in a new way.  Remember, this is one of the four Aston Martin AMR One chassis that didn't work in LMP1 last year.

I do agree with GF that the design of the DW has challenged the accepted philosophy of how a car should work.  However, in racing, you design a car to the published regulations, and the DW car is not designed to any regulations.  Again, if you gave a blank sheet of paper to all the current sportscar designers, and you were allowed to make up your own rules and regs, you would see some pretty weird and wonderful designs appear on track.

Sorry Robbo, but the thought of 33 DW's starting at Indy is very scary, and should never be allowed to happen.  We can argue till the cows come home about the performance of this car on track, and how it defies conventional thinking, but the simple fact that it (as Fax said) rolled like a beer keg after getting tagged on the rear, which would normally only send a car into a spin, not a roll, surely is enough evidence to suggest that the car can lap quickly, but in the heat of battle with other cars, is quite frankly dangerous.

As far as a more open design 500kg class is concerned, this is more appealing, and is possibly the way to go, rather than that of the DW.

[Boorish Grobian]

Shortcut, you bring up a very interesting point in that there really isn't much in the way of new technology on the DW, the only really revolutionary aspect of the car is the unique front track, and steering.  But much of the idea is going down a path pioneered in F1 designers thirty years ago.  Look at a 1980 ground effect F1 car, wide venturi channels, usually no front wings, tiny rear wing (most designers were looking to do away with wings altogther), to eliminate drag.  In some ways its resurrecting technology, or design theories that were regulated out of existance, and re-packaging it as something new and revolutionary.  Want to talk about a racing car that had a tiny frontal area, a slippery, low-drag shape, and got its power from a tiny engine?  Look at a Brabham BT50 BMW.  Maybe its an indication of how stale contemporary racing car design has become that this is seen as so revolutionary.
The cars completely illegal under the current regulations, simple as that.  Maybe someone will build a car with a jet engine, and eight wheels, that would be illegal too, should it get a entry for Le Mans, or the Petit?
Good God! The thought of that thing hurling around a high speed Indycar oval makes my blood run cold.  It would have to protect its occupant in a violent high speed collision with a cement wall, and have I serious doubts that it could.
As far as its 500kg weight? You get anything to go fast if it doesn't weigh anything, no matter how small the motor.  And much of the component to weight limit's in the first place is to make sure cars are robust and safe.
Fax

[nickliv]

I take all your points on board, Fax, but as a lightweight (500KG) car, it's going to have half the energy to absorb / dissipate as a 1000KG car running at the same speed, and lets not forget, it is running with a modern LMP tub which has the energy absorbtion mandated for a car running at over twice the AUW. It shouldnt have a problem, but I'd not wish a 200 mph plus accident on an oval on anyone.

[Boorish Grobian]

Good point Nick about the weight vs energy dissipation.  My biggest concern is that with a conventional Indycar, there are large energy absorbing sidepods on each side of the car, obviously these soak up much of the impact of a side hit. With the DW, there's nothing but the bare tube all the way back to the cockpit, and there just rear suspension, and venturi undertray.  Not much to absorb a side blow, which can be devastating at the high speeds Indycars often race at.
Fax