ALMS - Grand Am 'merger'

[Brad Zarse]

I think it's safe to say that you can forget idea of this new series being a "feeder" for anything.  You know how NASCAR thinks, the idea of a series of theirs, being a feeder for a another sanctioning body, is ridiculous as far as they're concerned.
My gut feeling is they could care less about the "Big Race" in June.
Fax

And it's that arrogance, which will essentially mean the end of the US as a serious sportscar racing nation.  

To be considered amongst the best, you have to run with the best, in the hardest races - pitt yourself against the toughest competition.

The ACO are unlikely to change their regs route for anyone - they simply don't do that - and why should they?  If you're right, and LMP classes are not right for the US market, then more fool the US market as far as they (and I, as a matter of fact) are/am concerned.  We are about to enter a golden age of sportscar racing - an age which we will look back on fondly - especially if, as rumoured, Porsche come along with a prototype to rival Toyota and Audi - If NASCAR fail to recognise it and make the series compatible with ACO regs and at least give the US teams a chance of preparing for the main event (without it being cost prohibitive), and the US public fail to demand the pinnacle of sportscar racing, then I'm afraid they are the only ones who really lose out.  The toughest, most important race in the world, will still be the toughest, most important race in the world - the party will just happen without any major American interest - which in my opinion, would be a real shame.  

  

[JDS]

The ACO are unlikely to change their regs route for anyone - they simply don't do that - and why should they?  ......

Don't be too sure Brad. WEC/ACO have made some interesting statements on LMP1/2 the other day and GTE/GT3 for 2014 - this could be a precursor to trying to tie back into the US merged series?

http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/lmp1-2014-regulation-update-and-the-future-vision-of-lmp2-and-gte_741.html

Not too sure how this would work though with energising manufacturers to spend/enter, but hey, it just might:

– Manufacturers will enter Manufacturer’s FIA World Endurance Championship
– Privateers will enter FIA Endurance Trophy for LMP1 Privateers

[Boorish Grobian]

Brad, With all due respect, what "Gloden era" are you refering too?  The EU is a joke, the US economy sucks. and China has crapped out.  Where's the Golden era going to come from?
GF posted some great photos... from 1998! Things were great then, the height of the Clinton era, life was good lots of money to go around, where are all those prototypes now?
Some of you are living in fantasy land?
NASCAR, if it really buys into sportscar racing, will go into it making sure their series is the pinnacle of the sport, screw the ACO! I know people in NASCAR, their attitiude will be"If people want to race at Daytona or Sebring, then they'll race under our rules"  These people went into the Meccca of Indycar racing, the heart of US racing, IMS, and their race became the biggest event on the calendar there, do you really think they're going to set their regs around a race held once a year in France?
GF mentions the heritage of US participation at Le Mans, really? The last ten years or so its been the Vettes and the Lizards, and a handful of other privateers.  Your going to make that argument? Seriously?
Fax

[Robbo]

That's it - I can't stay quiet anymore!

Golden era's only become golden era's once you go through not-so golden era's and what we have recently witnessed at Le Mans will be looked back upon as very much golden era's - Just look at the recent winning margins - It used to be how many laps, recently its been how many seconds!

I used to love the group C cars, but this year they just looked slow, unreliable and rather cluncky.

Sportscar racing is the only outlet for manufacturers to race road-relevent technology which is what the 24hr Le Mans was designed for and that still remains today.

US & The Rest of the World has very different philosophies about racing and what racing constitutes. I'm not sure that the US has the engineering capability to put together a competitive LMP1 program to compete at the highest level. FYI the Ferrari 458 for DP is the slowest 458 ever made (slower than the road version!).

I wonder what Le Mans has done for worldwide (outside US) sales of the Corvette??

[Boorish Grobian]

Close finishes are easy to orchestrat when you have lots of safety car periods, US (and for that matter F1) racing has perfected that.  As far as US technology?  At this point US manufacutureres are more concerned with building cars people can afford, and keeping folks employed than wasting money on racing programs that no one cares about.
Fax

[Brad Zarse]

Brad, With all due respect, what "Gloden era" are you refering too?  The EU is a joke, the US economy sucks. and China has crapped out.  Where's the Golden era going to come from?
GF posted some great photos... from 1998! Things were great then, the height of the Clinton era, life was good lots of money to go around, where are all those prototypes now?
Some of you are living in fantasy land?
NASCAR, if it really buys into sportscar racing, will go into it making sure their series is the pinnacle of the sport, screw the ACO! I know people in NASCAR, their attitiude will be"If people want to race at Daytona or Sebring, then they'll race under our rules"  These people went into the Meccca of Indycar racing, the heart of US racing, IMS, and their race became the biggest event on the calendar there, do you really think they're going to set their regs around a race held once a year in France?
GF mentions the heritage of US participation at Le Mans, really? The last ten years or so its been the Vettes and the Lizards, and a handful of other privateers.  Your going to make that argument? Seriously?
Fax

The Golden Era, comes from the excitement and quality of the racing - three major manufacturers, trading blows for overall victory, is something we haven't had for many years - sure there's been Audi vs Peugeot, and Bentley, and Pesky-Rolos - but the addition of a third, genuine contender, makes the next few years an extremely exciting prospect.  It might not happen, but if the rumours are correct, it's a distinct possibility.

The fact is, that Sebring and Daytona pale into complete insignificance in comparison to Le-Mans,  - Don't get me wrong, Sebring is a brilliant event, better for the spectator trackside, etc etc, but it's still not the same as the challenge of Le-Mans - and Daytona barely even registers on the radar in the US, let alone the rest of the world.   For manufacturers and teams to genuinely claim superiority, or claim any kind of saleable benefit to their race programmes, they need to be racing at Le-Mans, or racing against the grand efforts of Audi, Toyota and Porsche with events in the US - and the general consensus is that this will not be possible when the regs are announced. 

As for "where are all those prototypes now?" - errr....they're racing at Le-Mans - the 2012 Entry list suggests 33 of them......which is a pretty impressive grid for a group of cars that "nobody is interested in"......

As for US entry.  Audi North America, Krohn, Flying Lizard, Corvette, Highcroft - that's a bigger representation than most other nations.

If US manufacturers concentrated on making products which were fuel efficient (40mpg is more than acheivable with modern technology, yet you'll struggle to find a US car that does more than about 25mpg), made with quality materials instead of flimsy plastic, and which could actually go around corners, they'd sell more vehicles outside of the US, make more money, and be able to afford to go racing - and the development cycle would BEGIN with racing in the same way it does in Europe - develop the technology on the racetrack to safeguard future sales, and the whole thing becomes self sufficient.

And finally - you can't "orchestrate" safety car situations - well, not unless you throw "competition cautions" - which thankfully, are not a feature of European racing.....and long may that Americanism stay away from the important stuff.

[Boorish Grobian]

Brad, again your making a argumernt for once race a year.  This new series needs to be successfui, and make money over the course of a season here.  Again, where were all the big manufacturers when the ALMS was trying to stay afloat?  Why in the hell should they worry about what the manufactureres think when the ALMS was largely deserted by them?
What goes on at Le Mans every June hasn't translated into a successful racing series over here, if it did, we wouldn't be having this debate.
You keep banging about Le Mans, this needs to a season long success, not hanging on one damn race a year, and yes, looking at the TV numbers for sportscar racing over here, nobody cares!
Fax

[Robbo]

The argument is about Le Mans being the pinnacle of the WEC season.

There is no point the WEC going to America if American people (customers) can't grasp what technology racing is about.

There's alot of world out there that does get it!

As far as I'm concerned, let NASCAR rule so-called American sportscar racing with their fugly DP's, tubular GT's, manufactured races and let the serious American racing teams come and race the WEC. I think you will find that Starworks did particularly well this year! (backed by South American money).

As Brad states, if American car manufacturers and customers don't get with the program, you will get left behind and lets hope your economy is strong enough to be self-sufficient!

[Boorish Grobian]

If the UScar makers don't follow the ACO regs to go sportscar racing, the American auto industry will be left behind?  I make sure to let them know that when I'm in Detroit next week.
Fax

[Grand_Fromage]

Nothing new... In the history of sportscar racing in the USA, the general pattern of things in prototypes has been the domination of European constructors against the occasional home-grown effort. It was no accident that when Ford decided to challenge Ferrari in the 1960's they used a Lola as the basis for it and had it designed and constructed in England. Nothing much in that pattern has changed since then. America is still happy to go racing with steel tubes and cubic inches.

I've worked in racing in both the US and Europe over the last two decades, and any similarities are skin deep. The whole mind-set is different.. not better or worse, just different. Americans come to Europe to race BECAUSE it is different here. My feeling is that the ALMS was always a bit of a square peg in a round hole. A bit like watching a dog ride a bicycle, not because it is done well, but that it is done at all. Fourteen years for an endurance racing series is not a bad innings. The king is dead, long live the king... or whatever.

 

If the UScar makers don't follow the ACO regs to go sportscar racing, the American auto industry will be left behind?  I make sure to let them know that when I'm in Detroit next week.
Fax

[Robbo]

If the UScar makers don't follow the ACO regs to go sportscar racing, the American auto industry will be left behind?  I make sure to let them know that when I'm in Detroit next week.
Fax

Please make sure you read the post carefully before answering!

What I said was regarding technology racing, not ACO rules racing.

[Brad Zarse]

If the UScar makers don't follow the ACO regs to go sportscar racing, the American auto industry will be left behind?  I make sure to let them know that when I'm in Detroit next week.
Fax

If US car makers support a silhouette series, where all of the cars are essentially the same, and innovation is all but eradicated, then yes, they will be left behind.  You can say what you want about the ACO and their frankly terrible ability to keep fans happy trackside, but the one thing they are good at, is making sure that they give enough wiggle room for innovation and research which can be used on the road.  It won't be long before we see KERS style hybrid systems on the road, and we already see Semi Automatic gear shifts on Audis and various other marques (not the best example given that it originated in F1 - but the refinement, endurance and translation of it from extreme sprint racing, to road cars, came through sportscars).  DSG Gearboxes, FSI Technology, more extensive use of carbon fibre in road cars, etc etc - all of these innovations (which are prevalent in Europe) come from sports cars, and thus, the ACO's regs for the last 20 years.

Signs of the US being left behind are already apparent.  Corvettes until more recently, have been using LEAF springs.... a technology long since abandoned in Europe in favour of higher, better performing suspension systems.  If there's no racing series driving innovation, then where are the US  manufacturers going to get the technology which will attract new buyers?

[Boorish Grobian]

GF, I couldn't have put it any better.  Racing is different over here, its not better, not worse, just different.  Ther seems to be an opinion shared by many of the contributers to this forum that if its not done the traditional Euro way, its not right.  That's such tunnel vision, because something works for one group, doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.
As GF said, it was a great fourteen years, but times have changed, things haven't been successful in recent years and its time to try something new. Its pointless to continue down the same path over here, TV ratings have never been good, attendance has dropped, and there's a very poor car in count in the prototype ranks.  What's the point in continuing with the status quo when no one is showing any interest?  Purist may cringe at the idea of NASCAR running a sportscar series, I do, but they will make it successful, whatever its incarnation will be, or it will be gone in a few years.
Fax

[Nordic]

I am no expert on what happens in the USA, but it strikes me that the average US fan cares less for innovation preferring noise, flame and vibration and going home with s smile on his face, not really caring if the car has titanium nuts or bat Finke hydro suspension.

In Europe and Japan I think we like to see boundarys being pushed and innovation as well as racing, maybe more of an appreciation of the details.

Neither is right or wrong.

Fax is the exception to the rule and I am talking in very general terms. What I think is clear is that the USA will go its own wayfor the time being.

Hopefully the wec will grow, dome have said they are building a new car and Toyota is giving consideration to selling cars as well, add these to the much talked about Porsche, hint at a brighter future.

[Brad Zarse]

Fax,  Ultimately, the US needs to clean up its act on a wider scale - the world is going to run out of the fossil fuels that your cars seem intent on burning at a rate of a gallon per 9 miles, very shortly - and then what? 

If you are a representative of the US populations desire to go racing with big displacement engines and no thought for innovation to make things more efficient, then I look forward to the day that we run out of fuel, and the whole of the US comes to a grinding halt!  Perhaps then, Europe can look over to you all in our cars which produce 500bhp, from a teaspoon of fuel, and explain why their way was the way to follow - rather than being pig headed about "big flames, thunder and roaring engines"