Le Mans safety and amateurs on the track (rant!)

[Andy Zarse]

Slightly off topic (apologies) I would like to say that I find myself visiting quite a few sports sites and Club Arnage remains to me one of the very best by a long way. I think it is great that someone can come along and pitch an opinion with which no one agrees and that the result (with a couple of predictable exceptions)  is an interesting and well argued debate.

Another thing that needs debating is what good did the hideous new fin do in reducing the accident. The honest answer is that I have no idea whether it helped or hindered the accident process, does anyone know?


IMO we could have had an equally informed and interesting debate without the original poster's ridiculous comments. I too love CA for the very reasons you mention, but it has never been a place where fools have been suffered, and you've been involved in a few fairly strident flamings yourself, so it's equally predictable to my mind that you can't resist having a pop on here.

[landman]

Enough silly comments already from Danes, let alone Fins...

[nickliv]

Looking at Rockenfellers accident, it looked more like the fin acted as a sail, and caused the car to spear off and impact the wall more forcefully than it may have done without the fin, rather than spinning along the track a la mansell. That said, it didn't get airborne.

McNish has gone on the record stating that the fin worked as intended in his own accident.

[Boorish Grobian]

Agreed, not sold on the fin yet.  Something of concern that has been brought up is the effectivness of gravel traps in the case of high speed accidents where the cars tend to fly right over them.  They've come up with a pretty clever alternative to the gravel traps at Paul Ricard (and several other venues I believe) They've installed abrasive layers to the tarmac around corners to help arrest a sliding car, they gradually become more abrasive the further off the racing surface a car ventures, to point where they will wreck the tires.  But it beats being catapulted off kerbing in the barriers.
Fax

[nickliv]

Knowing the FIA,they'll mandate a ballistic parachute system which fires if an on board computer determines if the car is being driven outside its expected envelope of performance. This will be as about as effective as farting into a hurricane.

Asphalt run off is a very effective medium.

[mgmark]

Joining the debate after looking at the videos...IMHO,

In the McNish accident, the gravel trap didn't "trap" the car (it would have probably sent it rolling violently if it had), but equally it didn't get properly airborne, as it skidded/skipped across the gravel leaving a pretty constant plume of dust behind it.  The tyre wall, armco and the structure of the car did their job by absorbing a huge amount of kinetic energy quickly, but in a relatively controlled way; the loose wheel had little energy left when the photographer was running away from it.  That it went into the barriers at the angle and height it did, and that nobody got hurt may well have involved a certain element of luck.

In the Rockenfeller accident, the quick spin left into the barrier was probably more down to the contact from the Ferrari moving right against the middle/rear left of the Audi, which put both right wheels well onto the grass; combined with bags of grip on the left side wheels on the tarmac, the dynamics are inevitably going to slew you left - very quickly.  Again though the car didn't get properly airborne.

In both of those cases, the dynamics of the accidents combined with the structure of the car left the drivers unscathed.  I have yet to hear mention of the third serious accident of last weekend at 0330hrs, where the video shows Mike Wainwright driving the No 60 Aston Martin Vantage running wide onto the grass outside the right hander after the first of the Porsche curves, slewed left in front of another car (without making contact with it), hit the opposite side barrier initially with the front right of the car which spun the right side of it into the barrier.  Which was a solid concrete wall.  Which resulted in (reported) injuries of broken ribs, a punctured lung and a fractured pelvis. 

A lesson or two there perhaps about LMP v GTE structural designs, probably something about fins, but more particularly about the relative energy absorption properties of tyres/armco, armco alone, and concrete.........
 
MG Mark 

[Brad Zarse]

Part of me wonders whether the "Fin" Structure had a role to play in slowing the cars marginally, and stopping the whole structure becoming airbourne?

In my mind, the only aerofoil which was effective when the car was skewing sideways, was the flat surface, which must have played some part (however small) in keeping the car relatively close to the ground.

Ultimately though, the crashes can only be branded as a success.  Nobody was hurt.  The fact is, Motor Racing is a dangerous sport.  We all sign up to this, the moment we buy and use a ticket.  Whilst you can always find more ways to make things safer, I don't think there is any action to be taken here.  Two MASSIVE accidents, zero injuries - the precautions work - so leave them as they are!!

[Barry]

Mike Wainwright's crash was no were near as spectacular as the Audi's however went sideways into concrete barriers, high G accident.
Wish him a speedy recovery from his nasty injuries.

[Lazy B'stard]

I agree that the fins did a good job. If you look back two years to Treluyer's huge accident in the Pescarolo run Peugeot at Chappelle you get a good idea of the fin's affectivness. It was a similar accident, slightly higher speed; the car slewing sideways off the road. It then got air underneath it, started to pitch, the dug into the gravel and started to rotate. It rolled several times along the top of the barriers before falling back into the gravel. The key point being that the air got underneath and pitched the car into an angle that caused it to go down at an angle into the trap. With a fin fitted it would have stayed level and skipped accross the trap as the Audi did this time.
 
 To conclude, yes the fin works, but the gravel now has little affect.

[monkey]

I must admit I am fascinated by this. Mr McNish says it worked – then it worked.

Having risen to the mighty academic heights of CSE grade 2 physics, I am more than aware that I am way out of my depth here (but since when has that stopped me.)

I would always have imagined that once the car got sideways then the ‘fin’ as a flat surface facing oncoming air moving (relatively) at (say) 150mph (?) would create drag at the top of the car (over the fin) which in turn would cause (opposite reaction) lift at the bottom.

I wondered if in fact this was evident with the McNish accident where the car gets sideways and skips (leading edge up) across the gravel??

As has already been discussed – they worked – McNish said so, and no one was hurt. I guess in the case of his incident had the fin not been there then it might have spun dug in and rolled?? We (and certainly not I) will ever really know perhaps?   

[nickliv]

Isn't there more grip on the track, rather than off it, thereby turning a car with 2 wheels on and 2 wheels off away from the tarmac?

[pedersenkorsager]

this is only truth if you dont break. By breaking into the turn the two righthand wheels would skid on the grass, turning the car left.

[Bentley boy]

On last weeks Mid week motorsport on radio Le Mans (which I've only listened to today)they talked about Lamy being sacked during the race for not following team orders. possibly something to do with not making the pug a lot wider on track.

Anyone heard anymore about this?

If it's true it's shows how much pressure the drivers are under    

[JDS]

On last weeks Mid week motorsport on radio Le Mans (which I've only listened to today)they talked about Lamy being sacked during the race for not following team orders. possibly something to do with not making the pug a lot wider on track.

Anyone heard anymore about this?

If it's true it's shows how much pressure the drivers are under    

Judging by his official quote after the race, I's say it's entirely possible:

[nickliv]

this is only truth if you dont break. By breaking into the turn the two righthand wheels would skid on the grass, turning the car left.

Might be giving away my 'never back off, give no quarter' approach there