Le Mans safety and amateurs on the track (rant!)

[Lazy B'stard]

Good points and we are almost touching upon the real problem. The ACO changed the technical regs for this years race. The cars had smaller engines and were about 100-130bhp down on last year. The result was that the teams found speed elswhere. Both Audi and Peugeot ran with much less downforce this year to regain speed. I read interviews with both Davidson and McNish after the test weekend where they both said that the cars felt underpowered and required the drivers to carry more speed through corners, and only worked when pushed to the limit.
 So as a result of the ACO pegging back the top cars we have ended up with cars still running under 3:30 but requiring a much more aggressive driving technique. Hardly a step forward.

Thats the biggest problem with motor racing. No matter how you write the rules, those clever bods in the backroom will always find a way of going just as fast.

 Anyway. We have just witnessed probably the best race of a generation. Yes there were incidents, but show me a year at Le Mans when there wasn't? Personally i think the current format is brilliant. If every race in the future is going be as good as the one we have just seen, then that suits me fine.

[landman]

Are we talking about pro drivers versus amateur, or are we talking about banning/slowing the diesels?

Why should we slow the diesels or any of the cars for that reason? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was a race? If we step back a little in time it was to test how good a car (and more interestingly, their headlights) that Le Mans started in the first place was it not?

We always see this, slow them down they are going too fast mentality and then the regulatory bodies scrabbling to ban cool stuff that's been invented to subvert a rule etc. What the ACO/FIA et al should be doing is coming up with much cleverer rules that allow for innovation and propeller heads to come up with cool stuff that will ultimately make it to the road but keep competition going in the sport. If Audi and <spit> Peugeot can get a tractor to go so fast, why cant other builders? The rule makers (and people much cleverer than I'll ever be) need to think out of the box and find a way to make it happen - if the answer is just to keep slowing one or other type down then why not just stop development and call it the Classic Le Mans? (I'll go get my fireproof suit on now reaqdy for the onslaught)

Oh, and I agree with 99.9% of people here, Nishy's accident was entirely of his making and no, amateur drivers should never be barred from entering Le Mans, even the idea of it is silly or we may as well call it the FIA World Sportscar Series. Oh, hell, wait a minute ......

Why?

To prevent deaths that are entirely preventable.

I love the idea of clever bastards finding loopholes in regs, be it ACO, or F1, or any other.  Just wish I had the brains for that sort of work...

Yes it's a race and yes they can peddle those diesels pretty fast.  I don't deny anyone the opportunity to build & race these machines, but if closing speeds on corners are close to a 50 mph difference isn't that too dangerous?

God forbid we end up with an F1 type situation where all of the cars are within 107% of each other, that's why sportscar racing is so damn interesting.

I suppose the ACO will turn the wick down a bit, but not too much as Pug will lean on them as compatriots and Audi will lean on them due to massive investment in the track.

Still, I reckon the crowd would go wild if Henri grabbed top slot one year  

[adinsen]

Thanks for the comments - and for not flaming me

So amateurs on Le Mans is part of the tradition. I appreciate that. The last thing I want to see is a spiritless Le Mans.

And the dream of being able to do the race yourself - I can relate to that! This year was the first time I had a chance to drive my Espace on the track... Would I like to drive a race car there? Yes, of course!

But how many of the 249,500 spectators will ever be able to raise the funds for running Le Mans? Not to mention the millions who watch it on tv? And why should money make the difference - I'd much rather see talent be rewarded.

I don't want to see private teams exit from Le Mans - why should they? But I'd like to see more talented drivers on Le Mans - and yes, that includes the Peugeot drivers, and frankly I find it pathetic when a team owner puts himself in the car instead of picking the best man for the job. It's just bad management.

Not allowing the GET Am class at Le Mans (not in the ALMS or LMS though) next year will be a step in the right direction IMO.

About the McNish accident - Audi went for a closed top car with wider fronts and drivers seated lower. Driving that car must feel like having blinkers on. There is obviously also a problem with the way the gravel trap works for prototypes - the car was just never 'trapped'.

/Anders

[Andy Zarse]

Thanks for the comments - and for not flaming me

So amateurs on Le Mans is part of the tradition. I appreciate that. The last thing I want to see is a spiritless Le Mans.

And the dream of being able to do the race yourself - I can relate to that! This year was the first time I had a chance to drive my Espace on the track... Would I like to drive a race car there? Yes, of course!

But how many of the 249,500 spectators will ever be able to raise the funds for running Le Mans? Not to mention the millions who watch it on tv? And why should money make the difference - I'd much rather see talent be rewarded.

I don't want to see private teams exit from Le Mans - why should they? But I'd like to see more talented drivers on Le Mans - and yes, that includes the Peugeot drivers, and frankly I find it pathetic when a team owner puts himself in the car instead of picking the best man for the job. It's just bad management.

Not allowing the GET Am class at Le Mans (not in the ALMS or LMS though) next year will be a step in the right direction IMO.

About the McNish accident - Audi went for a closed top car with wider fronts and drivers seated lower. Driving that car must feel like having blinkers on. There is obviously also a problem with the way the gravel trap works for prototypes - the car was just never 'trapped'.

/Anders

Absolute and total drivel, are you seriously trying to insult out intelligence?

[lynxd67]

Picking through the thread we see that the back room boffins combatted the reduced power with less downforce, which could possibly have led to a 1999 flying Mercedes syndrome, but instead led to an "Audi flying low over gravel" syndrome. I agree also that the speed difference between the classes has always been there, but when you create more and more technological cars which lap faster and faster, no matter in which class, then when an accident happens it is going to happen with a "bigger bang for your buck" than before. Cars are better and more edgy too, but are the drivers, especially the amateurs, the same percentage better than their cars are? In 2001, then years ago, the winning Audi managed 321 laps, whereas this year the winning Audi posted 355, and increase of 10%, so logically an increase in average speed of the same margin. Surprisingly, because I thought there would be a greater difference, the Corvette posted 314 laps this year and the Porsche 283 in 2001, so again a difference of about 10%. Now this begs the question "are drivers 10% better than ten years back". One only has to watch the McNish Audi advert to learn a thing or two about fitness levels needed to cope with the G-forces today.

[JDS]

Just a couple of points:

And why should money make the difference - I'd much rather see talent be rewarded.

Sadly, money makes ALL the difference, Pro or Am. Look at the 'professional' drivers in F1 for example. Yes, there are those on stupendous salaries but quite a few 'pro' drivers that have rich parents or sponsors that brought their way in (either in the first place or continuously) - any team short of $10-20m will always look to fill the second seat with a pay driver.

I find it pathetic when a team owner puts himself in the car instead of picking the best man for the job. It's just bad management.

Isn't that one of the benefits of being a team owner? Perhaps you could speak to Martin short at Rollcentre on the matter?

There is obviously also a problem with the way the gravel trap works for prototypes - the car was just never 'trapped'.

That does seem to be the case, yes. The car literally flew over the trap and hardly touched the gravel, but, at those speeds almost anything with a flat bottom would have done the same. The problem is not the trap, it's the design of the cars and the rear fin this year was supposed to help - perhaps it did, perhaps without it the impact would have been even greater but it's pretty obvious that it did not work in exactly the way that the ACO had envisaged that it would.

[pedersenkorsager]

Just a bit of math.......
time difference 1st. to 2nd 16 sec. Laps 355
that will be ,045 sec pr. lap you can lose. How many corners can you then afford to sit behind a p2/gt car.
The line between winning and comming 2nd/crashing is very thin. If you want to be first, maybe you need to accept the risk and take the chance to overtake.
So the audi accidents was on Rocky/Mcnish, Pro racedrivers who knew the risk, and accepted it to be able to win. This time it did not work, but i think they will be right back next year doing just the same style of racing. cause if you slow just a little bit down you might not crash, but you are shure not to be first. And 2nd ist only the first loser.

Kenn

[landman]

If you look at some of the photos available on the net it's clear to see that IF McNish had squeezed past Belthoise in the Ferrari that he then had to Porsche's to 'deal with' just seconds ahead.  Cannot remember which teams but I think one of them was Flying Lizards.  Deffo not AM and correctly on the racing line.

So what was McNish actually trying to achieve?

He overtook his team mate & then had 3 cars in front of him on the racing line.

The whole thing has nothing to do with Amateur drivers and everything to do with either McNish suffering 'a red mist' or was so pumped up by team orders/expectations that he felt he had to just go for it, despite the fact that there were still 23 hours of racing ahead of him.

We've all complained about Poo-Joe's attitude & team orders, but let's be honest & realise that Audi must have had something similar for their drivers.

This battle for LMP1 supremacy is the root of the issue.  We cannot, and should not, seek to prevent the 2 teams from competing.  After all it makes great motor racing which is why we all enjoy it.  The issue is that the 2 of them are solely focussed on each other & are spending millions of Euros trying to gain the upper hand.  

Audi spotted the opportunity in the regs to introduce diesels and Poo-Joe decided to re-take the race as a matter of national pride.  No one else has been willing, or able, to follow for a variety of reasons including money & marketing.  Aston had an opportunity to develop a diesel engine [possibly might wish that they had...] but as they pointed out they do not offer a diesel in any of their cars therefore why go racing with a diesel when customers cannot walk in to a show room on Monday morning & ask for a car with the engine that won Le Mans on Sunday.

Maybe we all need to agree to disagree but I personally believe that the diesels need their wings severely clipping in order to restore safety and proper equivalency.

I'd also like to win the Euro-Millions lottery & have a threesome with Davina McCall & Suzi Perry.

[JDS]

...... have a threesome with Davina McCall & Suzi Perry.

Now there's a thought for those of us suffering mid-week syndrome ....

[Lazy B'stard]

  I think it is more to do with budgets that fuel types. Five years ago Audi had petrol engines. Has anyone been able to beat them for the last decade- diesel or petrol? No. The amount of money they spend, they would probabaly win with a car powered by carrots. Why should they be pegged back? Instead of the ACO constantly tweeking the regulations in an attempt to be seen to do something, why don't they sieze the opportunity, and spend that time and effort to encourage new manufacturers?
  We had engines and a large group of management from Nissan (not Neee-san Jim) and Toyota at the weekend, plus Mazda came along with that glorious noisy bastard of a group C car. The ACO want to be seen as green, why not dangle a big green performance break in front of these Japanese companies which are all heavily developing hybrid technologies? The only way to break the domination of Audi and the other team that should not be mentioned, is to have more factory teams with deep pockets come to the party.

Again though, as i said before, I can't believe we are griping about the performance of cars that have just provided us with one of the best races i have seen in the last 20 years.

Si

[Lazy B'stard]

Absolute and total drivel, are you seriously trying to insult out intelligence?

You really have taken a shine to the lad there Mr Zarse!
 

[landman]

Not so much as a gripe as a thought process.

By this I mean if I were the ACO and if I were sitting down this week to analyse the race how would I look to improve the race & also make it safer.

Clearly it needs careful handling and should not be a knee-jerk reaction.

Roll on 2012 

[Nordic]

  I think it is more to do with budgets that fuel types. Five years ago Audi had petrol engines. Has anyone been able to beat them for the last decade- diesel or petrol? No. The amount of money they spend, they would probabaly win with a car powered by carrots. Why should they be pegged back? Again though, as i said before, I can't believe we are griping about the performance of cars that have just provided us with one of the best races i have seen in the last 20 years.

Si

Hugh Chamberlin said exactly that, Audi and Pug have huge amounts of money compared to all the other teams, which other team could get Michelin to make them bespoke tyres for example?

I do not see a connection between the crashes and the motive power of the cars, rather drivers under pressure or not taking a risk and it not paying off.

There is a weight of expectation on McNish nowadays as he is precieved as one of the fastest drivers in the field, maybe that is also a factor?

[monkey]

Adinsen. I have to say that I do disagree with everything that you say really. Amateur drivers are a fundamental part of endurance and in particular the worlds greatest motor race the 24 hours Le Mans.

I also agree with the many here who have commented previously concerning the Mc Nish incident. What was he thinking? Even if he had got beyond Beltoise I could not see what his next move was going to be at all?

I am extremely grateful for the fact the circuit was so well prepared that no one was hurt. I have looked at that section of circuit on many occasions and wondered what the ACO were thinking about building such huge gravel runoff areas to the detriment of the viewing public possibly – no even with that it took a good deal of luck to result in no one dying or for that matter even sustaining any injury at all.

Slightly off topic (apologies) I would like to say that I find myself visiting quite a few sports sites and Club Arnage remains to me one of the very best by a long way. I think it is great that someone can come along and pitch an opinion with which no one agrees and that the result (with a couple of predictable exceptions)  is an interesting and well argued debate.

I am looking forward to 2012 already and in doing so – hoping that the tradition of the worlds greatest motor race will be upheld and we will once again be able to enjoy watching drivers of all calibres from all over the world as is the tradition.

 

[Boorish Grobian]

Having read through all of this, ultimately everything is just fine the way things are.  The car did its job in protecting McNish, the debris fencing protected the spectators, and there are some very fortunate photographers.  If any changes at all need to made, the blokes with the cameras may need a bit more protection there, but its their call to be there in the first place.  Accidents of this violence are pretty common in Indycar and NASCAR racing, just a matter of making sure the correct safety measures are in place when they do happen.  It was a poorly executed overtaking maneuver resulting in a big accident, like I said happens all the time in racing.
Adinsen's notion that amateur/gentleman drivers should be excluded is laughable, there wouldn't be a hell of alot of cars on the grid if that were the case.  Gentleman drivers are the backbone of sportscar racing, there are not a huge number of drivers on a the grid who are getting paid to be there, most are financing their ride one way or another.
And Adinsen, stop groping for excuses for McNish's accident.  I like Allan very much, think he's a terrific bloke and a hell of a racer.  But he f**ked-up, plain & simple, he had no business trying to pull off a pass like that twenty-nine minutes into a 24 hour race.  That overtaking maneuver was going to go pear shaped from the second he thought about it.
Fax