Le Mans safety and amateurs on the track (rant!)

[Boorish Grobian]

Completely agree with LB, Steve, Andy, etc  Have you actually seen the McNish accident?  That was totally on Allan, as I said on a different thread, that was a dumbass passing maneuver by a very experienced driver who should have known better.  From what I've seen from sportscar racing in recent years is some deplorable driving from the pro's, as well as the amateur drivers.  Many of the pro's seem to believe they have a divine right to do whatever the hell they want on the track, and the lapped cars are simply supposed to fall off the road to make way for them.  Doesn't work that way.  Gentleman drivers have been a part of the sport since the beginnings, on many occasions keeping the sport alive.  Agreed Andy, the first post on this thread is one of the more pig ignorant statements I've read on the forum in long time.  Sorry if your beloved TK never got a chance to drive, but direct your anger at Allan McNish, not Beltoise.
Fax

[SpriteII]

Audis driven over agressively, who'd have thought it.

[Lazy B'stard]

The owner is a former table tennis champion 

And your point is?

I might be wrong, but wasn't Carlos Sainz a National Table Tennis or Squash Champion?

Seb Loeb was a French National Junior Gymnastics Champion.

Both are quite decent behind the wheel. I think they might have won a few things.

[lynxd67]

As someone who is trackside and right in the thick of it, I tend to agree now that the time has come to make changes. I was astounded on Wednesday and Thursday at just how damned bright are the Audi's headlamps, even by day, and actually I can empathise a bit with any driver, pro or amateur, when these monsters come up behind flashing their lights, especially at night. It must be almost impossible to know just how close they are, since the lights blind you completely, and also to judge the speed differential. Is it time perhaps to abolish the GT2 class entirely? Sitting with the radar team on the Mulsanne hump, which is exactly 0.55 of a mile from the last chicane, the Audis and Peugeots were doing over 190mph and only braking at the 200 metre board, whereas the GT classes were over 50mph slower and braking much earlier. Le Mans is a unique race, and we don't want to see it change sustantially, but surely safety must pre-empt all other considerations. Your opinions?

[Lazy B'stard]

I consider modern motor racing to be safe enough as it is. When someone can climb out of a car unaided that has just hit the armco at well over 150mph, speared across the road to have another go on the other side, then i would consider that to be a safe sport. I see much worse injuries out riding my mountain bike week out week in.

Should we limit the cars to 80mph top speed and have them stop when it gets dark? In the interests of spectator safety should we make them watch from a hill outside Alencon? Where does it end?

It is a dangerous sport and i sure as hell don't want to see anyone get hurt, but there is such a thing as 'Acceptable Risk'. Those guys get paid a lot of money to drive those cars. If they no longer feel safe, then they should do as Sterling did last week and step aside. I know plenty of people who would take the Acceptable Risk and take the wheel.

My helmet and overalls are ready and waiting!

[Lazy B'stard]

Should we limit the cars to 80mph top speed and have them stop when it gets dark?

Thinking about it, that would give Aston Martin a chance to finish in the top 30. I do hope Dave Richards doesn't read our rantings.

[Nordic]

As someone who is trackside and right in the thick of it, I tend to agree now that the time has come to make changes. I was astounded on Wednesday and Thursday at just how damned bright are the Audi's headlamps, even by day, and actually I can empathise a bit with any driver, pro or amateur, when these monsters come up behind flashing their lights, especially at night. It must be almost impossible to know just how close they are, since the lights blind you completely, and also to judge the speed differential. Is it time perhaps to abolish the GT2 class entirely? Sitting with the radar team on the Mulsanne hump, which is exactly 0.55 of a mile from the last chicane, the Audis and Peugeots were doing over 190mph and only braking at the 200 metre board, whereas the GT classes were over 50mph slower and braking much earlier. Le Mans is a unique race, and we don't want to see it change sustantially, but surely safety must pre-empt all other considerations. Your opinions?

What cars did the 917 or 512 compete against, pretty sure there was at least 50mph between a 917 and 911s? Cant imagine the old DB's etc with less than a 1000cc broke much over 120mph compared to a 5 litre Ferrari 375 which must of been well into the 160's

There has always been speed difference, what has changed now is that some pro drivers are treating the race as a sprint brought up on a diet of Senna and the i'm coming thru at any cost mentality they feel they are the top of the tree and everyone else is a less of a driver.

Maybe McNish should ponder his actions as i think in his past a F3000 i think has gone into the crowd with tragic results and it was only by the grace of god we did not see a repeat of 1955. when 3 pros trip each other up. However I am yet to read his take on this accident so will reserve judgement until then.

[Andy Zarse]

As someone who is trackside and right in the thick of it, I tend to agree now that the time has come to make changes. I was astounded on Wednesday and Thursday at just how damned bright are the Audi's headlamps, even by day, and actually I can empathise a bit with any driver, pro or amateur, when these monsters come up behind flashing their lights, especially at night. It must be almost impossible to know just how close they are, since the lights blind you completely, and also to judge the speed differential. Is it time perhaps to abolish the GT2 class entirely? Sitting with the radar team on the Mulsanne hump, which is exactly 0.55 of a mile from the last chicane, the Audis and Peugeots were doing over 190mph and only braking at the 200 metre board, whereas the GT classes were over 50mph slower and braking much earlier. Le Mans is a unique race, and we don't want to see it change sustantially, but surely safety must pre-empt all other considerations. Your opinions?

What cars did the 917 or 512 compete against, pretty sure there was at least 50mph between a 917 and 911s? Cant imagine the old DB's etc with less than a 1000cc broke much over 120mph compared to a 5 litre Ferrari 375 which must of been well into the 160's

There has always been speed difference, what has changed now is that some pro drivers are treating the race as a sprint brought up on a diet of Senna and the i'm coming thru at any cost mentality they feel they are the top of the tree and everyone else is a less of a driver.

Maybe McNish should ponder his actions as i think in his past a F3000 i think has gone into the crowd with tragic results and it was only by the grace of god we did not see a repeat of 1955. when 3 pros trip each other up. However I am yet to read his take on this accident so will reserve judgement until then.

The above points are all sensible and debatable, but suely more suitable for another more considered thread that does not contain idiotic dumb-as-dogshit comments such as posted by the OP when blamed Beltoise (is he any relation BTW?) when it was clear McNish was at fault.

[Nordic]

Son of France's answer to John Surtess.

[Chris24]

The owner is a former table tennis champion 

And your point is?

I might be wrong, but wasn't Carlos Sainz a National Table Tennis or Squash Champion?

Seb Loeb was a French National Junior Gymnastics Champion.

Both are quite decent behind the wheel. I think they might have won a few things.

Steve Kinser was a wrestler and he has since  won 20 World of Outlaw Championships and over 500 feature finals in sprint car racing.

[lofty]

christ.just seen rockies crash.saw nishys at circuit.hope there ok.the faster cars and drivers know its an endurance race.pace without patience wont get to the finish.first big crashes ive seen at LM scary.hope the message gets through.like one of the other guys wrote the stakes are high and the lead cars very close.shame about the astons mansell moment.cant wait for next year.

[Jules G]

As someone who is trackside and right in the thick of it, I tend to agree now that the time has come to make changes. I was astounded on Wednesday and Thursday at just how damned bright are the Audi's headlamps, even by day, and actually I can empathise a bit with any driver, pro or amateur, when these monsters come up behind flashing their lights, especially at night. It must be almost impossible to know just how close they are, since the lights blind you completely, and also to judge the speed differential. Is it time perhaps to abolish the GT2 class entirely? Sitting with the radar team on the Mulsanne hump, which is exactly 0.55 of a mile from the last chicane, the Audis and Peugeots were doing over 190mph and only braking at the 200 metre board, whereas the GT classes were over 50mph slower and braking much earlier. Le Mans is a unique race, and we don't want to see it change sustantially, but surely safety must pre-empt all other considerations. Your opinions?

What cars did the 917 or 512 compete against, pretty sure there was at least 50mph between a 917 and 911s? Cant imagine the old DB's etc with less than a 1000cc broke much over 120mph compared to a 5 litre Ferrari 375 which must of been well into the 160's

There has always been speed difference, what has changed now is that some pro drivers are treating the race as a sprint brought up on a diet of Senna and the i'm coming thru at any cost mentality they feel they are the top of the tree and everyone else is a less of a driver.

Maybe McNish should ponder his actions as i think in his past a F3000 i think has gone into the crowd with tragic results and it was only by the grace of god we did not see a repeat of 1955. when 3 pros trip each other up. However I am yet to read his take on this accident so will reserve judgement until then.

There is a post race blog video on Alan's website. Typical PR stuff about the build quality of the R18

http://www.allanmcnish.com/output/home.asp

[nickliv]

Who hasn't sat at LM, looked at a passing GT or P2 car and thought 'If I win the euromillions'

Part of the spectacle of going is the thought that it <might> just be possible to go out there and play with everybody else? Without GT pro / am, and to a lesser extent P2, the event would lose a lot of its appeal.

TK doesn't like slower cars? Well Audi should make him an F1 car then.

[landman]

Are we talking about pro drivers versus amateur, or are we talking about banning/slowing the diesels?

If the ACO took the steam out of the Audi vs. Pug competition then the chances of that whole incident scenario would reduce substantially.

Are we witnessing a "Concorde moment" where Pug & Audi have reached a pinnacle?

Other teams can't/won't compete with the mega-budgets that these 2 teams have.

I can't be alone in thinking that a Pescarolo or an Oak Racing win would not be enjoyed by the French, can I?

The 3 Audi's were undoubtedly "on a mission" this weekend, and in return we all saw some very unsporting/dangerous driving from the Pug drivers, didn't we, M. Gene?

The ACO has to realise that unless they slow these 2 teams right down then their will be deaths on the track & the other teams will give up on LMP1

As for headlight technology I bet they all start using it soon.

[JDS]

Are we talking about pro drivers versus amateur, or are we talking about banning/slowing the diesels?

Why should we slow the diesels or any of the cars for that reason? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was a race? If we step back a little in time it was to test how good a car (and more interestingly, their headlights) that Le Mans started in the first place was it not?

We always see this, slow them down they are going too fast mentality and then the regulatory bodies scrabbling to ban cool stuff that's been invented to subvert a rule etc. What the ACO/FIA et al should be doing is coming up with much cleverer rules that allow for innovation and propeller heads to come up with cool stuff that will ultimately make it to the road but keep competition going in the sport. If Audi and <spit> Peugeot can get a tractor to go so fast, why cant other builders? The rule makers (and people much cleverer than I'll ever be) need to think out of the box and find a way to make it happen - if the answer is just to keep slowing one or other type down then why not just stop development and call it the Classic Le Mans? (I'll go get my fireproof suit on now reaqdy for the onslaught)

Oh, and I agree with 99.9% of people here, Nishy's accident was entirely of his making and no, amateur drivers should never be barred from entering Le Mans, even the idea of it is silly or we may as well call it the FIA World Sportscar Series. Oh, hell, wait a minute ......