Senna

[ewan]

Marley & Me was just a f**kin' dog but it still brought tears to our household.
As Irish says - take it for what it is.

That's the best come-back I've heard in a long time! 

Saw the film on the big screen last night, and it was well worth the effort. Even though it's inevitably biased (like most documentaries that are out to prove a point of view), it did show some interesting sides (the drivers briefings etc) that are genuinely new and offer a different perspective. Some pantomime baddies too - the French then-head-of FIA switching Senna's pole position to the dirty side of the track at Japan, with fellow countryman Prost on the clean side in 2nd.

ACO & Peugeot, anyone? 

Aside from the subject matter, as a film it was very good - no narrative, no interviews with anyone other than in period (ie they could have stuffed the time with lots of Brundle et all saying how amazing Senna was etc) - they only used footage shot at the time.

[BigH]

Blokes & wife in tears?  Jesus H Christ get a grip

Top drawer fax, I've (almost) just shat myself. Good to see you're on form.

H

[enzo]

At the end of the day any driver that makes it to F1 is going to be talented excluding the bought seats !! But i personally think he was a fantastic driver (personally alboreto and alesi were my favourites at the time but thats my ferrari bias) and can help thinking if he was British some of the opinions on this forum would be different.
Plus his charity is still making a hell of a lot of money for street kids in Brazil, so at least he left some good legacy behind him.

[Snoring Rhino]

At the end of the day any driver that makes it to F1 is going to be talented excluding the bought seats !! But i personally think he was a fantastic driver (personally alboreto and alesi were my favourites at the time but thats my ferrari bias) and can help thinking if he was British or American some of the opinions on this forum would be different.
Plus his charity is still making a hell of a lot of money for street kids in Brazil, so at least he left some good legacy behind him.

[Boorish Grobian]

Thanks Big H, I was inspired last night (mostly by several Spaten Optimator's and a few hefty Jagermeister's)
Enzo, like you I was a fan of Michele & Jean, but also Sandro Naninni and Derrick Warrick.  Certainly not the most successful drivers of the era, but still very talented and likeable men.
Fax

[Brad Zarse]

In the scheme of racing drivers achievements however, Senna's can be counted as numerous on the track, and truly inspiring off of it. 

The Senna "Branding" still makes millions, even today - the majority of which, goes to charity.  The "Sennihna" (Little Senna) cartoon raised hundreds of millions, and what did he take from it?  Very little actually - You'll find that a large proportion of the money Senna made went to charities in Brazil to help the countries most impoverished children. 

Sure, he was hardly poor, and yes, technically, what he did for a living, was drive racing cars, but to be blinkered enough to state that this was all he did, is at best, ill informed. 

How many racing drivers, sports personalities, or even human beings generally, can say that they put in place a legacy which made, and continues to make a genuine difference to the lives of those less fortunate? 

[Boorish Grobian]

Actually Brad, I can't comment on practices abroad, but over here athletes setting up charities is quite common, there's no great distinction in that.  When one makes millions, the decent thing to do is to help the less fortunate.  Its just being accountable as a human being.  As you say, there are athletes who's charities are contributing millions to causes, long after their playing days are over. He was a spoiled, pampered mommy & daddy's boy from a wealthy Sao Paulo family, and was usually reflected in the way he conducted himself, he was arrogant, aloof, and usually had little time for fans or media, and clearly believed that he didn't have to play by the same rules as his colleagues.
Fax

[Andy Zarse]

Not over here Fax. Lots of sportsmen do good work for charidee, but they don't like to talk about it (unless they've got a book coming out). They give freely of their time to be fair, but to my eyes they tend to be precious about it and don't like to talk to the ordinary folk. I cant think of many who stick their hand in their pocket and fork out actual money. So on that front, I guess you can't knock Senna, maybe that's the way in Brazil too?

But nor do I buy into this idea that Senna made racing interesting. He ruinned it in my eyes. He was responsible for setting the tone that allowed Schumaker (then Alonso at al) to prosper in the cheating stakes, so it seems odd to me to bemoan what happened the next ten years following Senna's death when he was partly responsible for causing it. When he crashed at Imola I cheered. I never do that when anyone crashes and obviously I never wanted him dead. But I hated him that much for what he did to the sport I loved.

As I've said before, I truly disliked Mansell out of the car, but as a driver he was amazing. But I hated Senna more in the car than out. His demeanour in interviews was a dreary insouciance, as if his time was being wasted talking to the public. It was the danger he caused on track that got my goat.

On the upside, I'm enjoying F1 at the moment, there's some great guys involved in the sport again. I know it's all a bit contrived, but the races have at least kept me awake.

[Brad Zarse]

Sports without controversy is boring.  This is why we still rely on the human eye in Football (Soccer to those across the pond who don't play real sports) and haven't reverted to the clinical nature of automated refereeing, which is no doubt possible with technology these days.

You surely cannot seriously blame Senna for the actions of Schumacher et al?  Schumacher only really came to the fore once Senna was gone and whilst I agree, that it was in his nature to push the boundaries to the absolute limit, I'm not sure I agree that he was a bona fide cheat. Schumacher however, CLEARLY moved across on Hill in 94 - a clear act of cheating having already smashed himself into the wall.

My memory is Hazy, but I seem to recall the Suzuka Showdown in 1990, when JM Balestre had "decided" that pole position was on the dusty side of the track, when co-incidentally Alain Prost was on the preferred side - Prost needed to win to have any chance of the title.  Senna took Prost off at the first corner, after the lack of grip had left him in  second with barely 100m of the race gone.  I can't say I really saw that as cheating - other than on the part of Balestre for which, and I believe he got his commupence when Prost was shunted off.

It's a tough call really - comparing it to football again, I disliked Robbie Savage, and I still dislike Neil Warnock, Arsene Wenger, Brendan Rodgers, Welsh football teams and so on, but I also think that whatever their gamesmanship level, football would have been a poorer place without them.  So for me, on that level, Senna made F1 interesting. 

Danger?  This is motor racing - if you don't like a bit of danger, you're watching the wrong sport.

All of this with the caveat however, that (whilst I was only 13 at the time) I also cheered when Senna crashed - but at the time, I was excited because he had become the pantomime villain to my childhood hero (who I only really saw as a helmet, instead of a person).  I would have cheered initially if Robbie Savage had gone down injured, or Neil Warnock had been clattered by a flying football boot, or the whole of Swansea had been blown up - It's natural for these pantomine villains.

I am also finding myself staying awake for GP's these days, whereas before, once the start was done, it all seemed like a good opportunity for a kip before the last lap.......
 

[Nordic]

Sports without controversy is boring.  This is why we still rely on the human eye in Football (Soccer to those across the pond who don't play real sports) and haven't reverted to the clinical nature of automated refereeing, which is no doubt possible with technology these days.

You surely cannot seriously blame Senna for the actions of Schumacher et al?  Schumacher only really came to the fore once Senna was gone and whilst I agree, that it was in his nature to push the boundaries to the absolute limit, I'm not sure I agree that he was a bona fide cheat. Schumacher however, CLEARLY moved across on Hill in 94 - a clear act of cheating having already smashed himself into the wall.

My memory is Hazy, but I seem to recall the Suzuka Showdown in 1990, when JM Balestre had "decided" that pole position was on the dusty side of the track, when co-incidentally Alain Prost was on the preferred side - Prost needed to win to have any chance of the title.  Senna took Prost off at the first corner, after the lack of grip had left him in  second with barely 100m of the race gone.  I can't say I really saw that as cheating - other than on the part of Balestre for which, and I believe he got his commupence when Prost was shunted off.

It's a tough call really - comparing it to football again, I disliked Robbie Savage, and I still dislike Neil Warnock, Arsene Wenger, Brendan Rodgers, Welsh football teams and so on, but I also think that whatever their gamesmanship level, football would have been a poorer place without them.  So for me, on that level, Senna made F1 interesting. 

Danger?  This is motor racing - if you don't like a bit of danger, you're watching the wrong sport.

All of this with the caveat however, that (whilst I was only 13 at the time) I also cheered when Senna crashed - but at the time, I was excited because he had become the pantomime villain to my childhood hero (who I only really saw as a helmet, instead of a person).  I would have cheered initially if Robbie Savage had gone down injured, or Neil Warnock had been clattered by a flying football boot, or the whole of Swansea had been blown up - It's natural for these pantomine villains.

I am also finding myself staying awake for GP's these days, whereas before, once the start was done, it all seemed like a good opportunity for a kip before the last lap.......
 

There is no difference in what senna did to Prost and what happened to Hill.

Both were calculated to punt the other person of with no regard for those following or the marshals who then had to venture to trackside to sort it out.

At least Senna had the grace to fess up. IMHO he should have been docked points, surprised that did not happen as everyone seems to think Balestre favoured Prost, Senna gave him the perfect chance to act and hand the title to Prost.

The reason Senna is blamed for Schumacher et al is that he set the precedent to drive in the way he did. Before then the sporting element of the rules were clear and the risks apparent.

The really sad thing is that Senna was the greatest driver of his era, and would have won just as much with out the needless incident's. the same is true of Schumacher. Very talented and both in different eras would have stood with the greats but for the flaws they are judged by now.

[Brad Zarse]

There is no difference, EXCEPT for the injustice of the situation in the first place.  Schumacher drove off the road, knew he couldn't continue and make a concerted effort to destroy Hills chance to beat him.

Senna was unjustly forced to the wrong side of the track, and took his revenge.  Yes, there was little regard for the safety of Prost, or the marshalls, for which, I think  Senna probably had some regrets - but if someone was trying to take away the most important thing in your life, by rigging an event, you'd probably see red too. 

In contrast, someone was trying to take Schumachers crown, but was doing so in a completely fair manner. 

For me, Senna was the rightful champion of 1990.
However Michael Schumacher was not the rightful champion of 1994.

But as we all know - that's not how it was allowed to happen.

[Boorish Grobian]

Brad, I'm not buying any of your argument. Your idea that sport without controversy is boring, is ridiculous, something I would expect to hear from a pro wrestling enthusiast.  If you need controversy to keep your sport interesting, then I would say its deeply flawed to begin with.  Sport is about competition, controversy spoils it.  Would you rather see a Nadal-Federer match decided by brilliant shot making, or a controversial line call?
Senna's legacy is that he corrupted the racers ethic, made dirty driving acceptable.
Keke Rosberg once remarked about how when he made his F1 debut, Mario Andretti took him aside and said "I know how things are in the Atlantics, or F3, and F2, here in F1 we do things differently"  Keke said he nodded his head, knew that Mario said all he needed to say.  He was now racing with the best, immature tactics on the track were not acceptable, and they would not be tolerated.  All of the drivers voiced their complaints about Senna's antics from the second he arrived in F1, but because those in charge at the time were a bunch of spineless jellyfish, they let hin get away with it.  Its the reason you see all of the over-officiating of races today.  Until Senna came along, the officials didn't have to police the drivers, they did it themselves.
Fax

[Boorish Grobian]

Watched this film for the first time last night on ESPN2 over here. Good lord what a mountain of crap!  Can't beleive viewers have actually bought into this Senna worship BS film?  Amazing how they skipped over him deliberately swerving at colleagues, or nerfing them off the road, hs paranoid rambling.  That wasn't even the best Senna bio I've seen!  The 1993 Duke video being better than that garbage...
My head is ready to explode at the thought that someone believed this was good! That was a steaming pile of pooh!  It was mostly footage that anyone who was a enthusiast during that era has seen. It was just a lame tribute to Brazil's deeply flawed hero (but one wouldn't know that from this blithering bullsh*t).
Jesus that was a hour of my life wasted...
Fax

[Fran]

Jesus that was a hour of my life wasted...
Fax

... and another five minutes moaning about it!!!   

[Kev_mk3]

still have not watched this is new in dvd wrapper just never in the mood for it