Start of silly season, F1 drivers changing ships!

[Brad Zarse]

Well I wouldn't mind a bash in one of these.....

[Brad Zarse]

Could see this coming a mile away, I stand by what I've said before, what the hell do the big manufacturers have to gain by being in F1 now, if you look at the costs involved, and the venues for the race meetings, what's the point?  How many cars are Honda and Toyota selling in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi?  Seriously WTF!
Toyota's NASCAR program costs a fraction of the F1 program, and they race in a country where they actually sell a few cars.
It's all about bang for the buck...
Fax

True, but seriously, who other than the slightly moronic americans would really want to watch a toyota going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round in circles?

Surely it's just as much about expanding brand awareness and preparing new markets for penetration as it is about running races in a country where if they ask customers nicely, they'll buy the cars anyway???

[knetter]

Could see this coming a mile away, I stand by what I've said before, what the hell do the big manufacturers have to gain by being in F1 now, if you look at the costs involved, and the venues for the race meetings, what's the point?  How many cars are Honda and Toyota selling in Bahrain or Abu Dhabi?  Seriously WTF!
Toyota's NASCAR program costs a fraction of the F1 program, and they race in a country where they actually sell a few cars.
It's all about bang for the buck...
Fax

Correct, but there could be a market there for Rolls Royce, Bentley and Maybach

[Boorish Grobian]

Hate to burst your bubble Brad, it has nothing to do with expanding brand awarness, its everything to do with going to countries that are willing to pay Bernie's ridiculous fee for hosting a race.
You should take in a race at Daytona or Talladega before forming opinions.  I'm not a NASCAR fan, but will be the first to admit that a race at one of those venues can be pretty mind-blowing, I've been to both.  Have you?
This year Toyota's will race in 36 NASCAR Sprint Cup races (not to mention all the Nationwide Series events) in front of their largest market, for a fraction of what it cost them to do F1.  Seems to make simple economic sense.
Fax

[Doris]

Brad - with but a few exceptions (rallying and hill climbing are the two that spring to my mind without much thought involved) isn't the majority of motor racing just cars going round and round and round?  The tracks may not be oval, or even anything that could pass as remotely circular, but if you stay in one place the cars will eventually come past again...

Dx

[Steve Pyro]

Doris, that's probably why I like drag racing.

[Perdu]

Doris, that's probably why I like drag racing.

dont be daft Steve

you just lurve the NOISE

and the smoke

one day I might come along to try it

bill

[Brad Zarse]

Hate to burst your bubble Brad, it has nothing to do with expanding brand awarness, its everything to do with going to countries that are willing to pay Bernie's ridiculous fee for hosting a race.

hang on - you're either talking about the attraction to manufacturers, or the wider political F1 debate - you can't pick and choose to suit your argument.

F1 has the appeal that it goes to many far flung countries - some of which the manufacturers don't do business with.  It's also shown to billions around the world.  It's ALL about brand awareness - otherwise, there would never have been factory teams - £300 million to be seen by billions every couple of weeks, is actually a good return on investment in normal economic circumstances.

You should take in a race at Daytona or Talladega before forming opinions.  I'm not a NASCAR fan, but will be the first to admit that a race at one of those venues can be pretty mind-blowing, I've been to both.  Have you?
This year Toyota's will race in 36 NASCAR Sprint Cup races (not to mention all the Nationwide Series events) in front of their largest market, for a fraction of what it cost them to do F1.  Seems to make simple economic sense.
Fax

Yes - I've been to Daytona, and very impressive it was too - especially for a football fan (thats soccer for those of you that think FOOTball is played with the hands) it's a brilliant venue, and compares to places like the Noucamp, Old Trafford, and other big places I have been very favourably - , but ultimately, going round and round in simple circles hardly demands the highest level of skill now does it ? even Juan Pablo Montoya  and Michael Andretti could do it....

Toyota have already achieved market penetration in the US.

In other news though, Toyota have realised that the world is bigger than America, and actually, whilst the yanks have a very healthy pond to fish from, the skill, and future of the business comes from being able to attract fish in a puddle - hence the reason for going through the F1 route ..........

as much as Americans believe that their "world series" of anything is being watched around the world - actually, most countries outside of the US have proper sport to watch - so the market penetration in these areas is negligable.

[Boorish Grobian]

Nice Brad,
Plenty of words but little said.  So why have Toyota, BMW, Honda, and possibly Renault pulled out then?  From where I stand, its poor return on investment, especially given the current economic climate.  After all, the above named manufacturers still compete in a wide variety of other motorsport activities worldwide.
And no, I'm not going to get dragged into another one of your xenophobic arguments regarding the stick& ball stuff, really can't be bothered
Fax

[Nordic]

I think it all depends on if your winning.

Honda, Toyota and BMW where not up to the game and rarely tasted success in F1, yet have impressive records in other branches of motorsport.

It can't be an easy sell going to your board looking for a budget of ££££ to toll around as a midfielder when your mate who looks after the WTC programe is after a fracton of the amount and is still able to bring home the bacon.

The major teams, with the execption of Merc and Ferrari who see to be able to make something of F1 are better of as engine suppliers and spread there wares between teams. Works teams are better servered in WTC and GT programs where the cars the star, not the driver.

NASCAR is big enough and able to divide the fan base into sectons, Ford GM etc so the brand is recongised and linked to the driver, A bit like football, your a teams fan, not a players, but the players in that team are by default the best. When they move on you have decide to which you the greatest loyalty, team or driver.

That does not happen in to any great extent in Europeon racing.


All imho - I may be talking bollocks.

[Boorish Grobian]

Well done Nordic, I think probably hit it on the screws pretty well.  And regarding NASCAR your right, its fan base is probably closer to that of a stick & ball league than any other discipline of motor racing, and to be honest that's one of the reasons its always driven me up a tree.  But yes, fan loyalty to a brand, team, or driver is everything in NASCAR.  The best example was at the end of last season when Tony Stewart left a very succesful relationship with Joe Gibbs and his Toyota backed team, to set up his own Chevy backed operation.  Left many fans of the partnership on the fence deciding who to stay loyal to.
Fax

[Andy Zarse]

came across some photoraphs of the USF1 place, looks like Peter Windsor has got them up and running, lots of expensive kit, with coloured lights that go back and forth, a large tub like thing that does the carrots and t'atters in about five minutes flat and a 'no internet cruise policy' so no visits from them to Club Arnage.

http://www.formula1.com/gallery/other/2009/430.html

Peter, I was at the Honda (now Brawn) F1 works in Brackley two years ago. I accidentally got detached from the tour party, got lost and ended up in the stationary cupboard. It looked exactly like your US F1 pictures. If that's all they've got on the techno front they'll be three seconds a lap behind Force India and Toro Rosso. And not a spare pencil sharpener in sight.

[Boorish Grobian]

Saw a bit on Speed TV where Steve Matchet was given a quick tour around the new USF1 facility.  Oh dear, my local VW service garage looks more high tech than this cinder block, white-washed warehouse.  If I am one of the backers of this bunch I'm hanging onto my wallet with a death grip, Windsor's one of those characters who will disappear in the middle of the night and take the financial resources of the team with him.  The car they showed on the CAD screen bore a remarkable resemblance to a 2001 Williams.
Fax

[oldtimer]

came across some photoraphs of the USF1 place, looks like Peter Windsor has got them up and running, lots of expensive kit, with coloured lights that go back and forth, a large tub like thing that does the carrots and t'atters in about five minutes flat and a 'no internet cruise policy' so no visits from them to Club Arnage.

http://www.formula1.com/gallery/other/2009/430.html

I accidentally got detached from the tour party, got lost and ended up in the stationary cupboard.

Couldn't you catch up with the cupboards that were moving?

[Andy Zarse]

came across some photoraphs of the USF1 place, looks like Peter Windsor has got them up and running, lots of expensive kit, with coloured lights that go back and forth, a large tub like thing that does the carrots and t'atters in about five minutes flat and a 'no internet cruise policy' so no visits from them to Club Arnage.

http://www.formula1.com/gallery/other/2009/430.html

I accidentally got detached from the tour party, got lost and ended up in the stationary cupboard.

Couldn't you catch up with the cupboards that were moving?

Groan