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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2004, 03:26:58 pm » |
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Typical cheap plastics lead to typical cheap squeaks and rattles. That was one of the big new improvements on the '05 Vette, that GM found better plastics for the interior. You would think that a car touted as hitting 0-60 in 4 seconds flat would have an interior to match. How much more could it cost to have a TVR like interior? I have heard that they can be of questionable build, but those interiors are sexy as ....you know.
Probably a fortune, as the majority of parts used in TVR interiors are bespoke and individually made. GM has a very large parts bin to select their cheap (but improving) quality plastic parts from. Unfortunately although the materials used in TVR interiors are of reasonable quality and look nice the assembly can be, as you say, less than perfect. Combine that with high NVH and the you can watch the car disassemble itself around you - according to someone I know with direct experience. Had a brief look at a secondhand Cerbera a while back at a local dealers as I was toying with the idea at the time, nice to look at from a distance but one look at the way the screen had been 'bonded' in persuaded me that I'm not that brave yet! Interestingly my current steed (Subaru) is made with pretty low rent plastics in the interior yet after 5 years of 'enthusiastic' use there is still not a rattle or squeak. It's more about the quality and accuracy of the design and the repeatability of the build. I hate to say it but just check out the panel gaps on any Jap (or German) car and compare them with those on a typical US competitor to see what I mean. |
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A man's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink - W.C. Fields
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vwgtifan
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2004, 12:01:06 am » |
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True, true, but even that can be a disappointment. My original '99 GTI was built in germany. ABSOLUTELY bulletproof. I then had an '01 A4, also built in D-land, again the same case. My current '03 GTI was built in Brasil or Argentina, but has those stinkin' rattles, mostly in the backseat, (without my help, har har), and has a few electrical gremlins with the rear wiper and cruise control.
Now an American made car isn't the bad car. The American engineered car is the bad car. We make our own Nissans, Toyotas, and Hondas here, all with awesome reliability.Our own GM, Ford, and Chrysler brands are junk, not from the build quality, but the engineering designed to fail at 75,000 miles.
I hope that Mitsu and Subaru aren't going to follow like GM with amazing engines and weak interiors.
Either way, if a TVR were for sale on this side of the pond, I would be first in line. What a looker!!
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Life is too short for dull cars, cheap beer, and ugly women.
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pretzel
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2004, 02:53:05 pm » |
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Either way, if a TVR were for sale on this side of the pond, I would be first in line. What a looker!!
From what I hear and read in the British motoring press then you may get your place in the queue in the not too distant future. Since the sale of TVR to Russian Nikolai Smolensky there have been a number of articles where he has been quoted as saying that European and US markets will be addressed, they will sink more money into developing LHD cars, aiming to meet US emissions regs. etc, etc. Personally I think they should spend a bit on making the cars more reliable first, then the world markets will be theirs for the taking. I agree the cars are great to look at, but I want to drive as well. Not spend half my time sitting at the side of the road staring at my car waiting for the tow truck to arrive. |
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A man's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink - W.C. Fields
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Black Widow
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The hills are alive with the sound of......BDA's!!
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2004, 06:18:32 pm » |
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Either way, if a TVR were for sale on this side of the pond, I would be first in line. What a looker!!
From what I hear and read in the British motoring press then you may get your place in the queue in the not too distant future. Since the sale of TVR to Russian Nikolai Smolensky there have been a number of articles where he has been quoted as saying that European and US markets will be addressed, they will sink more money into developing LHD cars, aiming to meet US emissions regs. etc, etc. Personally I think they should spend a bit on making the cars more reliable first, then the world markets will be theirs for the taking. I agree the cars are great to look at, but I want to drive as well. Not spend half my time sitting at the side of the road staring at my car waiting for the tow truck to arrive. I've also heard that Smolensky is also making a few threats at the existing board, saying that things will only be done his way. Good or bad??  |
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I sat on little Miss's Muffet!!
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Matt Harper
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2004, 10:00:42 pm » |
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[quote author=vwgtifan Now an American made car isn't the bad car. The American engineered car is the bad car. We make our own Nissans, Toyotas, and Hondas here, all with awesome reliability.Our own GM, Ford, and Chrysler brands are junk, not from the build quality, but the engineering designed to fail at 75,000 miles. Either way, if a TVR were for sale on this side of the pond, I would be first in line. What a looker!! Hi vwgtifan Your posts seem to contradict each other somewhat. Earlier, you state that the new C6 is a quantum leap forward on quality over it's predecessor and then state that GM brands 'are junk'. Firstly, I think it a little ill-informed to suggest that the C5 suffered any significant build quality issues. I've owned my C5 vert for over 3 years. The interior looks a little cheap, compared to a Benzo or BMW - but we're not comparing apples with apples, pricewise. There are no (and have never been any) rattles, squeeks or gronks and the panel fit and finish are utterly superb on my 2000 example. I agree that the C6 has even more grunt (400bhp from the LS2) and that additions like satnav, keyless ignition and lat g meter are cool, however, the seats, dash layout and general ergonomics are pretty much the same, as far as I can tell. Aesthetics are a subjective issue - and whilst I actually prefer the more curvaceous lines of the C5. I'd take the C6 for the extra performance and the slightly smaller physical dimensions. As for the TVR - they are somewhat quirky and idiosynchratic (I'm being polite). The TVR/Corvette debate has been a long and arduous one. It seems that the Corvette fans are owners of same and the TVR fans are - erm, everyone else. As said before, don't knock it 'til you've tried it. As far as mainstream product is concerned, you are absolutely right - a Chevy Monte Carlo does not have the same engineering pedigree as an Audi A6 - but then, it costs less than half as much....... |
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If it\'s good and fast, it won\'t be cheap. If it\'s fast and cheap, it won\'t be good. If it\'s good and cheap, it won\'t be fast.
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Gilles
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2004, 11:55:50 am » |
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i'd just registered the application of a '65 Mustang Fastback for my Winter Classic Rally !!!  |
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Le Mans is life, anything before and after is just waiting...
... it's not the taking part but the winning that counts !
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vwgtifan
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2004, 10:27:00 pm » |
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Matt, Ouch! One point I tried to make was that a car that can hang with the likes of many supercars should have a better interior in fit and finish. The new C6 is quite attractive, undeniably powerful; and IMHO, a large step up in the interior, yet the interior is still short of the supercars it can hang with. The second point was that even cheaper European cars, (Fiat, skoda, etc), have better interior feel than similar price/performance/function U.S. models. The new Mustang, if you have been in one, doesn't have a nice interior. It's pure crap. Huge cheap slabs of creaky plastic all over. That seems to almost be a standard of American cars. It can't cost that much more to improve the interior feel of an American car. Since you asked  I am curious, why does the avarage American car still use power robbing pushrods, larger displacement to get the same power reads as a smaller (not always, but usually more efficient)jap/german engine? Yours, Matt; aka VWGTIFAN |
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Life is too short for dull cars, cheap beer, and ugly women.
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Matt Harper
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2004, 11:45:19 pm » |
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Hi Matt
Written word is easily misinterpreted, it wasn't my intention to attack.
My point is that C5/6 (late generation 'Vettes) are in the big leagues performance-wise, but cost around 50% of equivilant pork, benzo, Ferrari or even Viper. I guess some of that saving comes out of the quality of the interior. The build quality i.e. how it's all screwed together is good, in my experience. If I compare the interior of my C5 with that of my guv'nors CL500, they are poles apart - but the Merc cost $120,000. The Corvette outperforms it in every respect, aside from cosseting it's occupants.
For a like for like comparison, select a $50k car that will do what a C6 can do on the road - and compare interiors. Personally, I can't think of a like for like. Sure, it would be great to have a M-B, BMW, Audi or dare I say it Lexus interior - trouble is, it would then be more than $50k! We seem to be going around in circles.
I agree - the new Mustang is a little cheap (not just the inner sanctum) - but it's a mass-produced, cookie-cutter type of car - priced appropriately.
I still feel you are generalising too much by stating that Fiat/Skoda etc interiors are superior to even high-end yank iron. Current Caddys, Vettes, Vipers and the like, are not so bad.
I honestly don't recall asking - but I think the average American car uses pushrod motors (if that is true - and I'm not sure it is anymore) to keep the costs down and make the product less of a colossal purchase for an individual.
In the case of the Corvette, OHV delivers lots of affordable torque, a low hood (bonnet) for unbeatable Cd figures and improved visability, over the C4 predecessor. The LT5 (Corvette ZR1 DOHC V8) was just too big physically and too damn expensive to carry over. It all boils down to economics. GM could easily build the best supercar on the planet, given their resource - but what would be the point of that - to a mass producer? This is why cars like the Corvette should be admired for their value and performance bang for the buck - not reviled and unfairly compared with cars that cost twice as much and only do a similar job.
Best regards
MattH
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If it\'s good and fast, it won\'t be cheap. If it\'s fast and cheap, it won\'t be good. If it\'s good and cheap, it won\'t be fast.
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vwgtifan
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2004, 01:12:27 am » |
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No Matt, you didn't ask, but it seems you are quite the C5/6 fan, and I love to debate the virtues of U.S. vs E.U. machinery.
Good topic for a new thread. I heard the C6R will be difficult for the engineers to work with, due to the shorter overhangs. Any news on that?
Matt
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Life is too short for dull cars, cheap beer, and ugly women.
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Fax
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2004, 07:16:25 am » |
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Hey GTI Fan (I had a grey '86 for years),
Like the new photo of you and your mates next to the GT40 but what the hell is with that red, over-priced pile of sh*t on the right? Looks like a very expensive Fiat...
Fax
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Dave H
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burrrrrrrrppppp
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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2004, 08:31:46 pm » |
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...but what the hell is with that red, over-priced pile of sh**t on the right? Looks like a very expensive Fiat...
Fax
Fax - you're going to hell for that comment! Guess I'd better keep the Turdo after all.  |
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vwgtifan
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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2004, 11:29:31 pm » |
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Fax,
The GT 40 belongs to my old neighbors in Brussels.
After getting a divorce, serving in Afghanistan for 10 months, and hitting 30, I figured I deserved to rent the POS for Le Mans! It was worth every penny to haul a** from Paris to LM in that thing.
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Life is too short for dull cars, cheap beer, and ugly women.
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Andy Zarse
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« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2004, 12:49:06 pm » |
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Anyone see Bullet on C4 last night? It right cheered me up after the dreadful BBC Sports Personality of the Year. A worthy winner in Holmes, but you'd have though in a two hour prog they might have found time to mentioned Tom Kristensen, Aston Villa or even the gold medal GB won in the Olympic show jumping, which was a sporting classic to watch. But no, we get 5 mins on Loser Radcliffe instead. What a load of bollocks!
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I wouldn't sit there if I were you, it's still a bit wet.
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Perdu
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2004, 01:19:25 pm » |
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 A Zarse esq, sir. You struck a raw nerve there mate. The only time the BBC has for the Villa is the last fifteen seconds of "Match of the Day" just before the winding up blurb. A five or six goal match (not too likely this year I'll admit) would still only get in at the end with flashes of goal action and little comment.... Oh well, there is always Motors TV to take away the taste. Bill
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"Ha ha you can't a fool me, there ain't a no sanity clause!"
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Fax
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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2004, 01:34:04 pm » |
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Sorry Dave and GTI Dude but I've just never bought into the whole mystique around Ferrari's, mostly thought it's all been over-hyped BS especially since the Commendatore checked out in 88. Dave you may want to hang on to the turbo, if you think you've got build quality issues with the TT wait till you get the Fiat.
Fax
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