Club Arnage

The main topic of conversation upon our collective return from Le Mans last year seemed to centre on the level of theft from campsites. I recall the general attiude was one of deep disappointment, despair even, at the sheer buggeration factor aused by having car keys, cameras, wallets, passports etc stolen. Many peple were even threatening never to attend Le Mans again, so spoilt was their experience.
From memory, just about every goup suffered to a greater or lesser extent from pilfering by persons unknown. Even Team Zarse was not imune, having our GoPed stolen. Thank God there was nothing else worth pinching on our pitch. The general CA consensus was that things were getting completly out of hand and that the ACO seemed loathed to do anything constructive about it. I personally wrote to the ACO to complain about the level of theft and true to form the rude bastards did not even have the common courtesy to reply to me.

Maybe the time is right to address the problem now rather than on our return? So it looks like we collectively need to do something about it ourselves. I'd therefore like CA members to propose some practical solutions to this problem, both passively and actively.

So to start the ball rolling I think we should produce some posters, flyers and handouts warning the thieves, in several languages, of the potential consequences of being caught. And we maybe need to be our brother's keepers a bit more. Can we organise some security patrols on the saturday night when things are at their worst? Anyway, please all feel free to chip in with suggestions. Doing nothing, it seems to me, is no longer an option.

Your further ideas are welcome...

Andy,

As you are aware, CA members camp in many camp sites and therefore are widely spread. Some camp alone.
It is obvious that any valuables not taken with you to the circuit should be locked up in the car/van etc.

To mount a lookout, which we have always done and with assistance from our near neighboughs has resulted in no thefts but just a bit of vandalism. The downside side of this is that people miss aspects of the race. The upside is Radio Le Mans.

You start noticing the 'lurkers' on Tuesday. When your group has formed, point the lurkers out and to your neighbours.

Three years ago, we caught a vagrant trying to get away with his swag, the Police were there within minutes. They were VERY persuavive in getting him into the Maria!!!!!

From last year on Expo, the 'lurkers' appeared to be site security, they could hardly speak the lingo and looked shifty. We offered them a beer. No trouble.

Should you need translation into a variety of Eastern European lingo, let me know.
Lady PP works with a plethora of Poles, Slovaks and Bulgarians who will happily do it.

PP

Bloody immigrants  ::) ;)

The new CA guide will have a chapter about this, here is a preview:

http://www.lemanszone.de/c15y-campsite-security.pdf

It was basically done by mgmark and me, suggestions for enhancements welcome

Cheers

Werner

But Werner, there's nothing in there about beating them with clubs and leaving them bleeding in the moonlight ???

True Andy, and after consulting my attourney I removed also the paragraphs about the barbed wire and landmines campsite installation and the c*ck and ball torture - damn political correctness :(

Ive been thinking more and more about this the last few weeks and its concerning me quite a lot. A few of our advance party suffered from the thieves but this year I shall be at the campsite longer! Im taking copies of the passports and driving licences with me and my spare car key ( trying to get a new alarm fob asap aswell! ) but will it be best to keep valuables locked hidden in the car?

Most serpently.

Locking valuables hidden in the car is IMHO the best option - it's easy to raid a tent but not every thief has the skills or tools required to crack a car - especially if it has a noisy alarm system.

Locking stuff out of sight in the boot has to be the right approach.  On a practical point you are likely to be uninsured for anything in a car that isn't locked in the boot and out of sight (assuming you have All Risks cover on your home insurance)

BUT do it unobtrusively, don't make a big show of putting your camera in your crappy escort (or whatever) and then be surprised when someone has screwdrivered your locks!  (do Fords all still open on the same key as they were prone to some years ago?)

Then make sure you keep your keys safe.  As Mark's lads found out last year locking all your goodies in one place is great unless the scrotes get the keys, keeping keys in a bag inside your tent no longer seems to be safe.  I've always put the keys in my bag and slept with it close to me but I think this year I'm going to get a small plastic box and keep the keys in the bottom of my sleeping bag - I'm worried about loose keys in case I blip the car and unlock it in my sleep! 

Again, practically you should always travel with a copy of your passport, insurance etc., it's also worth making sure someone at home has a copy that they can fax to you if needed.   

Im going to invest in a money belt later today and also a very small Tupperware pot for the keys and passports to go in the sleeping bag. We are not going to have masses of expensive goods on us and if we do they will be locked hidden in the boot! The car has a bloody load alarm and also a steering lock so that’s going no where! There are no locks on the car so no one will be using a screw driver in locks here!

since we do not cross the channel and don't have to be bothered with passport controls, I always leave it at home, but if you have no choice lock it in the car, somewhere safe and  easy enough to find again once you've sobered up ;D

As we are with a large group we did not have any issues at our site last year, there is always someone around and about, safety in numbers. Patroling on the friday night party with massive Mag-lites in our hands also helped warn the scum not to try anything. This year I am prone to bring my carbon fiber hockey stick to perform cock and ball torture if required!!

I also always keep my money and keys (if I bring any) in my sleeping bag at night, money in a moneybelt works best, some sleeping bags even have pockets in them just for this purpose, buy those if you can find them. Securing your tent zips will usually result in tents sliced open with a knife, if they want to come in they will!!

But I do agree with the text in the CA guide, do not get to paranoid and just don't bring your most expensive stuff to Le Mans, and have a good time with the majority of the good willing people on the sites.

The thieves will never think to look in your sleeping bag for you car keys and passport.  ::)

Kev, you need one of those little stainless steel cylinders like the prisoners used in the movies Midnight Express and Papillon :o

i meant when im in there at night - in the day the car keys will be on my - passport in the car
any pictures as im struggling to think what it looks like?

A trick you could try is to take a theft set of car keys you no longer own, an old wallet with a few euros, an old cancelled credit card.

Leave that in place where a scrot is likely to look. The hope being that he will see that, take it an be away without looking too hard for the real stuff.

Otherwise just lock everything away in a car.

Give a spare set of car keys to a mate to lock away hidden in thier car so if you do loose yours you can still get around.

Never carry all your money, keep it split up in your car, again so the thief wont get it all if he does get in.

Keep em peeled!

Its small enough to fit up your arse if thats any help when you google it!

id rather not have anything up my rectum  :-[

That's not stopped the LM theives in years past. They break into your tent when you're out cold and drunk. Then they pinch your money and bum you before stealing into the dead of night. Still, being drugged and bummed by puffs is not a new experience to some of us, eh Kev!  :D Having things put up your arse at LM sometimes isn't optional!

Could be a problem if you push too hard and loose it

yes i was wondering if that would be re mentioned!! thanks Mr Z  :laugh:

They'd have to be pretty thick if they are helped out by "I'll lock my valuables in my car and keep the keys with me and in my sleeping bag" it's not exactly rocket science is it? 

Are good immigrants.

;D

Now now, play nicely please....  ;) ;D ;D

MG Mark

I know it's not a help to many but I love the combination door lock on my car at parties.....awful handy not to have to carry anything.  Gee, at Sebring all we really have to worry about is someone taking your coolers of beer.

Personally I have never experienced any theft at Le Mans - but I was married to a copper for 10 years and have a bit of an OCD thing about security.

I always lock valuables in the car boot when away from my pitch for any length of time.  During the start and finish I join the tent zippers with cable ties.  I have even devised an alarm using a rape alarm and a tent peg fixed to the tent zip - just need to remember it is there when you get back. 

OK - thieves will probably carry knives which can cut through the cable ties - but they are just as likely to pick another tent with easy access.

Not very romantic but my OH and I sleep at the sides of the tent and keep our clothes bags in the middle between us. 

The problems I have seen have often stemmed from thieves taking advantage of drunk people where their beer mask prevents them from being observant about their surroundings or taking care with possessions.  I don't often drink*, so will tend to keep an eye on others in our group that are a bit worse for wear.

Debs

*except for the one occasions at the drivers' parade where I failed to specify I needed a glass of wine at the restaurant and got a whole bottle and ended up with a temporary road sign as swag.   :o

Given that nearly everyone I know is on HA this year I think we should have round the clock security. However, for regular Le Mans visitors anywhere, I think it is pretty easy to spot non race fans (i.e. thieves) or now the security has improved  ::) (security personnel) and a quick nod to your local campers should help increase awareness.

Otherwise, send them over to Pig-Pen's Perversion Parlour and we'll **** them real good  ;D

Two of us stayed up all Saturday night last year. The two tw-t we caught one got a fine boot in the balls, the other got an 18st right hook off me, which by the sound of the impact, I bust part of his face. There excuse as he was trying to rob Stu's gear was I am french, our reply was so f-----g what cop for that. I agree that were possible we should keep an eye out for each other, but don't be stupid you never know if these people are tooled up so be careful. I was a landlord, so I have a feel for the bas--rds having seen every type of smackhead you can think of. Remember they are sober you could be half pissed.
 A 2 foot length of scaffold tube across the knee caps, then say he fell over the car running off, your word against his. We were on MB last year and had a problem, this year we are tucked a way at the back of BN.

Strike first. Ask questions later.

It does seem a terrible shame that things got so bad the first year i went never really had any problems but like the old saying goes doesnt matter where you are you are never far from sh*t!!!!

Now wheres that scaffolding pole gone??????????

Its nothing new, we were robbed in the mid 80's, then nothing since apart from a few chairs.

I really dont think its worth getting into a fight over. Your in a forgien country, likey to be pissed without any legal backup, sleeping in a tent that is hard to protect surround by people who are unlikey to want to get involved.

Just be careful with where you keep your stuff, unless your prepared to loose it, dont take it was my motto.

Electric fencers appear on ebay, they'll run off a car battery. Hmmmmmmmmm

Possibly a bit counter-productive, when they give you a tingle up your todger as you nip round the back of your tent for a quick wee and forget about the fence....  :o

Or the pikeys will just have it away with your car battery....  >:(

Afternoon chaps,

first post here so hello as well!

Were with speedchills and we have opted to go for the more secure camping option, the reason partly attibuted to what I have heard about thieving. I camped only once before in 2003 and we had no problems in Houx. I hope we dont find out the hard way!

Cheers, Chris.

My impression was that last year it was the quiet sites away from the circuit which were targeted, eg Bleu Nord, and it was pretty obvious why: No-one around from Saturday afternoon until Sunday morning cos everyone was at the circuit. HA is probably less of a problem cos there's always someone around.

We lost a quad bike, and following the tracks afterwards it was pretty obvious that the scrotes had walked off with it it, then hidden it in a field before turning up later with a van or something to take it away. Now, you'd have thought a few shifty blokes pushing a quad around at 3am would have been spotted - but nope. This year, I'll be keeping an eye on my stuff - but also other people's.

One other thing - lots of prestige cars had their badges nicked last year, and the takers didn't mind doing some damage in the process. I'd say one way to avoid this is to take a cover for the car...

Too rite ;D
The cattle prod I just purchased from my Uncle Shirly is a right handful. He said its a bit pokey!
My splatter grenades should be fun too!

Apologies for bumping an old thread, but I've just booked the secure camping option with SpeedChills for precisely this reason. Seeing as some thieves are now brazen enough not only to rob tents but do so while people are inside them, I'd really rather not wake up to discover an uninvited (and most definitely unwanted) visitor stripping out anything that's not nailed down.

I never take anything I can't afford to lose anyway, but money and travel documents are obviously very important and so I carry them on my person (even when asleep) and never leave anything in my tent that I don't want to find missing when I get back.

Sneak thieves are, as a rule, arch opportunists. Having to get over two metres of anti-climb fencing and evade SpeedChills security force will, I hope, prove a sufficient deterrent that they'll stick to the public campsites instead (not that I want anyone to be robbed, obviously, regardless of where they're camping).

The ACO need to get a handle on the obnoxious jerk element before it gets out of control, granted, but while the jerks are merely annoying (as a rule) the thieves are beginning to become more and more of a problem and the ACO, as organisers of the race and campsites, need to drop the hammer on them now before things get any worse.

The ACO really do have to get Securite to act as security, rather than just act as obnoxious busybodies upsetting the average punter, otherwise known as revenue protection.  And not go home at 4pm on Sunday

Having said that, Blue Nord seemed OK this year, but only after the fiasco of 2007.

I must confess, as cynical as this sounds, whether or not in, say, five years time, groups like SpeedChills or similar won't end up running more and more of the campsite space, especially as the allocations of tickets and camping permits seem to be increasingly in the hands of ticket agents before the general public can order them via the ACO. After all, give it a few years and perhaps, if much of the campsites are privately run, it would be handy for the ACO to avoid cracking down on the thief and jerk element by saying to the campsite companies 'Your campsites, your problem.'

I wouldn't say it's a really major problem. Yet. But I'd rather see it clamped down on before it develops any further, I must admit. As far as the British GP goes I don't know, as I've never been. But Glastonbury has a serious theft problem, and I've been there a couple of times. It's not just that people steal from tents at Glastonbury, I've heard reports of people coming back from bimbling around the site to find that there was only a patch of bare grass (or mud) where their tent used to be and that everything inside the tent had gone with it to Parts Unknown. That and I've also heard about people having tent thieves rob them while they were actually in their tents, occasionally using pepper spray as form of persuasion.

Theft at LM is a bit overblown IMHO.

Would we expect better in a similar situation in UK? No, Glastonbury and Reading are a nightmare.
Are you careful about pickpockets in UK? We are, we have teams regularly coming down from the smoke to work our town, due to the number of tourists. Why not do the same in France?

Any campsite is risky, just lock tempting stuff in your car, you would not dream of leaving it out on a UK campsite, even a 'holiday' one.

The ACO really do seem to be in two minds as to whether they want to deal with the public at large. I think the main reason for people using the agencies in the past, is that they get the tickets they ask for (even though Maison Blanche is half empty, the ACO think its full).

So does this mean that as well as the agencies mark up, we'll have to pay for private security and site fences

Well, the ACO have long had  less than superb reputation for giving punters the camping allocation they actually ask for, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if, in a few years time, much of the campsite space is in the hands of private operators. So yes, I'd say there's a distinct possibility that, as time goes on, people will increasingly be turning to privately run camping spaces, either because they get fed up with the ACO ticket lottery or because that may be all they can get.

If the ACO did offer the camping tickets online I would imagine it would be chaos.

They would all be gone within hours, most into the hands of the scalpers and no one would get what they wanted. If they restricted the number allocated then those that want more would be upset.

Alot of people also make multiple applications, further hampering the process while the aco waits form them to either not pay or be informed.

The system (if you could call it that) does not work, but right now I cant think of one that would.

Neither can I.

3 ideas though:

1) For a start they should give some priority to ACO members, otherwise they won't have any left.

2) The other problem is that they seem to dump large groups on BSJ automatically. You could get round this, but due to the pitch numbering system, you cannot order small amounts of tickets (or source them here and there) and then get together on the site.
So scrap the numbering system, but enforce the one campsite ticket per marked pitch.

3) Control the price that the agency's charge, especially the huge markup on GA tickets, that ticket is not in short supply, and the price a lot of them charge is pure blackmail if you have to buy 1 or even 2 for each camping permit.

I agree that ACO members should get a priorty as well as the discount, something many cant take advantage of as they buy via agencies;

Like you I don't know why they cant restrict the sale price mark up of the entrance tickets, not all agencies do this anyway so there must be a choice involved.

I like the marked but not numbered pitch idea.

This would be n excellent idea, in my opinion.

Another reason I went with SpeedChills for the 2010 race is that I can buy a single race ticket, which is important as I travel to Le Mans alone. The ticket agency I used before (I won't name them) wouldn't sell a camping permit to me unless I also bought at least two General Admission tickets and both the GA tickets and the camping permit had something like a 10% markup, in addition to the agency charging extra for a (compulsory) Royal Mail Special Delivery.

This time, I've got a single GA ticket and private, secure camping, washing and toilet facilities, entertainment, food and a decent bar, for the same price as I would have paid for two GA tickets (when I only need one) and a place on the public campsites where the amenities and security will (more than likely) be nowhere near as good.

Beginning to sound like an ad ! ;)

£269 for a 7m x 5m pitch for 2 people & a 'family' car.

£135 pp.

So that's £135 for camping in a 'secure' compound with own toilets & showers.

Seem to remember that I paid £31.75 for my camping last year [say £35 for this year?], so you're paying roughly £100 for the priviledge.

Think I'll stick with Club Carnage.

May be if a few of us wander around with fleckie vests on & pretend to be security we'll avoid the thieving pikies?

Sorry about that, I didn't realise until I read it again just now.

But campsite security is, for me, an issue that the ACO need to come to grips with in some way, rather than take what's currently a relatively small problem and ignore it until it gets worse enough to start putting people off going. I can do without extra comforts if I need to (it is a camping trip after all) but I'm reluctant to do without proper security if I don't have to.

And if I went to my previous ticket agent again, I'd end up paying just as much (if not more) for an extra GA ticket I don't need. As I'm travelling on a reasonably tight budget, I don't want to be spending more money than I have to and if I can get improved facilities for the same amount then I don't mind doing that.

Andy, you started this thread.  We talked about getting the world straightened out a couple of years ago and the sometimes extreme measures that may have to be taken in some situations.  In Texas, we just blow the f***ers away if they come into your home or into your car with you in it.  (Is your tent or car your home at Le Mans?  No, and you are in another country.)   Here a S&W 357 will do nicely.  But thank God, this is Texas, a no bulls**t place.  I understand that you guys in Europe have turned in your means of self-defense and face a bad situation that will only get worse over time and not just at Le Mans but everywhere.  It will eventually get that way here in the states unless a lot of misguided liberals (progressives) wakeup to the fact that criminals will not turn in their guns and will be the only ones with one.  What happened to responsible common sense????

Hi John,
A quick google tells me that last year in the UK there were 50 deaths from firearms (it's been about the same for the last 10 years). In the USA it was about 10,000.
It's a sad fact that more Americans have shot and killed each other since WW2 than were actually killed in the war.
Common sense enough for you?
H

Hi Big H,
Good to hear from you.  How is that beautiful Jag?
As to my post. Responsible common sense was absent with senseless or brainless killings that have happened anywhere in the world.  Certainly, guns are available and people do stupid stuff with guns, knives, cars, baseball bats, etc.  But, I would never put a sign in my front yard saying, "There are no guns in this house to protect me from criminals.  I will wait on the police to show up."  A gun owner has a level of responsibility that 10,000 people failed to reach unfortunately.  But disarming millions of law abiding gun owners is not an appropriate answer and to this point in time, gun ownership is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.  I don't think anyone has a good answer for stupid or out of control hotheads misusing a weapon.  I'll guarantee you that not every one of those 10,000 was a robbery in one's house or that they were in fear for their life.  Self protection or hunting is the only appropriate use for these weapons.  It was more than likely a fit of anger where somebody did something stupid and unfortunate like not securing the weapon from curious children.  BTW, we kill a lot more people in car crashes (nearly 40,000) and too many are through anger.  We call it "road rage" and this is a dangerous game that some people play.  There are a lot of people driving to who don't drive very well at all.  I don't know if you guys have much of this in U.K. or not but it is happening, especially in high stress driving in urban settings mostly.  Anyway, as long as their are stupid people or criminal types preying on people, we will continue to debate the issue of self protection and the responsibilities that go with it.  Stay safe.
je

It's difficult to know what to do isn't it. I mean, Kenn Korsetter and his boys could arrive packing heat at the CA encampment on Blue Nord. There'd be a drunken argument over one of JPC's card tricks, the shooters would come out and there'd be freeform mayhem like the saloon at Nowhere Gulch. Next thing The Gimp would go into one with his sex hammer, MG Mark will call in an airstrike and with innocent fans caught up in the Beaten Zone, it'll be Boot Hill for the lot of us.

No, self defence is the name of the game so Team Zarse have cancelled the Commer this year and taking a page out of the Pirranha Brother's book...

NOW WE ARE TALKING!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So to bee sure to meet the Zares on even ground, we might have to bring this little fellow along. Anyone knows what a pumpkin is called in French?

Hmm...  Fair ruels, how do i get a picture in here ???
 ??? ??? ??? ???

Apparently its a potiron.  I'd have thought a pamplemousse would have been more appropriate

For pictures, click the second  button in the second row and paste in the url, or upload from "additional options"

One of these to see of the pikeys is a must. I wonder if Carrefour can provide one


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbcnWRi0g8Y

thats better  ;D

(http://www.cannon-mania.com/images/Pumpkin/p-cannon4.jpg)

Kenn

www.cannon-mania.com/images/Pumpkin/p-cannon4.jpg

No pumpkins are for softies!!! - what are we, french?

What we need is one of these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYCwU7B8jI&NR=1&feature=fvwp

With the Cold War over for some years now, freedom to operate in the region in question has been curtailed, even beyond the always slightly tricky aspect of operating in French airspace.  Nevertheless, in the interest of offering best value for money for the taxpayer (there are enough of us out there every year...) and hand guns being such a relatively uncontrolled mechanism (whether in professional hands or not), and artillery largely having the difficulty of not being able to change the outcome once the shell has left the barrel, air-launched precision guided munitions probably offer the best option.  Sadly, present government Defence cuts balancing of the books are directing spare capacity towards the main effort, which is some many miles away from continental Europe but, if available, would you prefer an aircraft equipped with Paveway http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjkAhpgMo_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjkAhpgMo_k) or JDAM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eFqdmV5aqk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eFqdmV5aqk) on standby to call up in support?

MG Mark

Mark, just wondering, have the RAF got any JP233 left? Could it be converted to a campsite denial system?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAGmDqH4c-8

I personally think that fixed wing aeroplanes are not the best.

A pair of Apache AH64-D's would cover us most adequately.

Not only would they provide top cover, but they could could/would "blow them away" in the dawndraught.

Paul

Perimeter protection is always a good thing and the Claymore is indeed highly capable - just need to run it in controlled mode to comply with the Mine Ban Treaty - and although JP233 could be used in that role (albeit a tad indiscriminate) it doesn't comply in any mode, so is no more.  Apache is indeed a useful adjunct, should perimeter protection either fail or not be available. 

But a good old fast jet show of force http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HEgdRkuF-U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HEgdRkuF-U) is often all that is required to get the heads of the miscreants down before resorting to the heavier stuff.  Mind you the intermediate step of a good strafing run is a sight and sound to behold http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y8tUdwKyWk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y8tUdwKyWk&feature=related), at least not from the wrong end of it.........but, of course, if a land-based system is required, then C-RAM has to be it.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmjZBaQLsCw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmjZBaQLsCw)

MG Mark

Have anvils, will travel.

Pretty indiscriminate though.

Ah, the good old JP233, I used to machine the parts for them at ML Aviation in Slough, a totally nasy bit of kit, not supprised its not complient, something to do with the mines it would laydown to blast the buggery out of the run way repair teams I think. No too risky when staggering back from a DFH party. 

Yes the RAF should have quite a lot spare, as its illegal under the land mines treaty.  A suicidal device if ever there was one.  You have to fly over well defended airfields to drop them, and even at night, all those little bomblets light up the sky.  There ought to have been a stand-off version.

This leaves me with the Claymore.  I was wondering if I could make money by selling some dummies - from a basic mould for polyfilla, with "Enemy this side" marked on it, and some Humbrol matt green.

And whilst CRAM is effective, I think we're looking at a lot of colateral damage here

Indeed, JP233 was neither nice for the receiving end, nor was it for delivery.  As for C-RAM, collateral damage maybe, but what a sound.......   For stand off capability, then either Storm Shadow or Brimstone must be the way to go in that respect...

MG Mark

In the interest of mot making the campsites more messy than they need to be, might I suggest the M460 Stingmore? Non-lethal and it's used on the outside of embassies for riot control:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/406003/jackass2_riot_control_test/

Anyone from Jackass who gets shot is ok by moi!