Club Arnage

.

But they drove RED CARS so the rules don't apply

Will Massa have one as well?

If he gets ahead of Kimi will have a extra pit stop?

Its a crazy situation, the team should be allowed to favor whoever they want, they pay the wages so should call the shots, Its not up to the FIA or anyone else to dictate what tactics they employ.

Just read this on the BBC website too - it's completely, totally idiotic. I really have trouble comprehending what on earth is going on with the FIA that they think that such a move will 'boost' the public's view of either F1 or it's 'governing' body ???

Eddie played the game properly. Great examples were Austria ("I had no breaks left, so had to let Michael by) and Japan '97 (where he overtook Villy to block him off for Schumacher).
Things became more obvious when Rubens arrived though :-\

As if the official gets to check everything ??? He does not see what goes on before the race weekend, does he? Alonso has been a complaining bastard all season long, seems fit to me that they want Lewis to take the championship! As long as it is not the red brigade.

Puts on flame proof garments……..personally, if not Alonso, I would rather see Raikkonen win the spoils then Hamilton. I just don't like the guy……..media whore comes to mind.

But agree about the FIA, what good is it going to do and how effective is it really going to be. And it really is non of their business how a team prepares its cars.

How absolutely and barking mad - just shut the eff up and race!  However, it is all probably part of the psychological warfare involved in the build up for Brazil, now that he is back in with a realistic chance of winning after Hamilton's disaster in China, and particularly given the apparent fact that he is not exactly on best speaking terms with Uncle Ron these days either...

MG Mark   

What a load of b*llocks, I'm being to wonder who is worse, the Poison Dwarf or Mad Max.



Hope the FIA guy is a software expert, if I was Uncle Ron I would be lookig for the best engine map possible for Alonso's car. ;)

So, in China, Hamilton was favoured then, so he crashed out with threadbare tyres. And Basque B*****d came second!!!!!

Look out for ETA 'personnel' near the pit area.

I have read elsewhere that the FIA babysitter may have been Ron D's suggestion to prevent FA from complaining that he was unfairly treated.

Could be possible as it makes a bit of sense. I would doubt if RD would favor one over the other so has nothing to lose.

What I find so incredibly distasteful is that it implys that there is a case to answer. To think it has come to this....

I can't help wondering what someone like Gilles Villeneuve or James Hunt would have made of all this?  ??? I'm fairly sure they'd have punched Alonso's lights out.

(http://www.globalserve.net/~trauttf/Gilles/GV11.jpg)

Agreed Andy, I suspect GV, and James are puking in their graves at what F1 has been reduced to.
Remember racers were guys like these?
Fax

Nice picture Fax, was it taken in heaven.

I think it's a pile of crap and frankly I don't care who wins now, it's become an absolute farce.

The FA issue though isn't about having No 1 and No 2 drivers, it's about Maclaren having been instructed by Mad Max not to disadvantage FA for telling tales to the teacher!

I would have been prepared to pay good money to see that - unlike F1 which I gave up on many years ago

What absolute b*11*cks.  If I were Ron or one of the mechanics, I'd tie the Spaniard's shoelaces together

The spanish one would claim his shoe laces were shorter anyway ::) ::)

Hi Rhino, they always said those two were the patron saints of hell raisers & girl chasers.  ;D
Fax

I have to say the thought had crossed my mind that British Team, British Driver, Moaning Spaniard, Alonso leads into last lap, engineers "accidentally" hit the STOP button to bring hamilton home as champ...

Cynical? No- Fair....

Alonso can win if Hamilton is second or third, no need to press the 'stop button'. Hamilton will still be champ ;D

I dare say this was a 'technology rumour' but;  many drivers and commentators about 10 years ago said that a monkey could drive the McClaren. It was even muted that a driverless car completed laps at about 3 secs off the pace. This was when telemetry was the 'be all and end all'.

Now that level of technology is against the rules, the only stop button is in the car unless connected to the computer. Bluetooth is very local and takes time to acquire. Broadband possible but doubtfull.

We beat them in 1588 when hopelessly outnumbered.

British Grit WILL prevail.

Watch for people being brought into the pits so that they come out in traffic. Unexpected requirements for splash and dash. Problems removing the refuelling rig. Wrong tyres. Then of course the marshals might randomly select one of the top cars to be weighed during practice and jeopardise it's chances.

And while team orders might be out of order, I bet Massa would do his level best to act as rear gunner for Kimi if the situation arises.

Oddly enough though, I feel MacLaren will play it straight down the line and won't show favoritism to either driver. If Hamilton wins, I can quite see Alonso making himself out to be a martyr and boasting how he helped Lewis win at his own expense. I hope I'm wrong. I liked Alonso last year...

All teams to get 'fair play Tsar' at Interlagos.

The appointment of a 'fair play tsar' to the McLaren team for the Brazilian Grand Prix to ensure that neither driver has an advantage over the other has turned up several irregularities. For instance, he found that one driver has been using different tyre pressures to the other, and at one point, he noted that Lewis Hamilton was given more fuel than Fernando Alonso.

Full report here : http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33201 (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33201)

Fears that FIA's Alonso fair play concern has gone too far

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33188 (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33188)

Ade

My hope is that Alonso and Hamilton take each other off at the first corner, resort to physical violence, and Raikkonen steals the title.  I couldn't give a rats ass about Mclaren, or Ferrari, the F1 community is a bunch of pissing & moaning jerks, right down to the janitors.
Fax

That'll be a Senna/Prost revival then.....only now they don't really race like they did then.....

MG Mark

To be honest, I don't have any fond memories of the Prost-Senna wars at all.  It was at the best of times juvenile and pathetic.  At its worst it bordered on homicidal.  The bad blood between team-mates that was truly comical was the Mansell-Piquet debacle.  The way Nelson used to get under Nigel's skin was fricking hilarious!  But they didn't take it to the track, they behaved themselves there.  This stuff today between Alonso and Hamilton is plain stupid...Whining, spoiled, immature, prima donna's.
Fax

Now that is quite true - I had forgotten quite how funny that one was!  As for the children spitting their dummies out today, I think I said somewhere else that I wished that they would "just shut the fu** up and race"

MG Mark

To be fair, I think Lewis wishes the same thing!

F

Fax IMO that's not really fair, Lewis has been pretty moderate in his behaviour. On one level you could say that he is playing the role of Piquet to Alonso's over-emotional Mansell and getting right under his skin. Having said that, Lewis has conducted himself pretty well, just about all the bleating has come from the Spaniard. You simply have to admire his maturity. I also like the way that Lewis couldn't give a rats ass that Alonso is a double world champion, it was always a Senna trait that mere mortals should bow down on one knee to him and show due respect, and Mansell used to get right up his nose when he didn't. Result; bent Lotus.

Andy, your correct, and I stand corrected.  Lewis has shown remarkable maturity for someone his age, and given the circumstances he's in.  Far more than Senna ever displayed at a more advanced age.  I suppose another year of F1 pissing matches (Alonso-Hamilton, Ferrari-McLaren) had me a bit blind to the conduct and merits of the individual participants.  I had a great deal of respect for Alonso (as in "had").  His griping, and complaining is utterly unworthy of a world champion, and in many ways reminds me of of, dare I say it, Nigel Mansell.
Fax

Has the world gone mad?
 Radio headline on way to work this morning - Lewis told to tone down his celebration on the podium if he wins world title in Brazil tomorrow!
 What the fec are they expecting him to do? I hope he shows his knob to Alonso, whinging little spanish sh*t. The FIA should just f*ck right off. What is their problem with the guy?? Hes given F1 a much needed kick up the arse this season and they want him to tone it down. w**k*rs.

As a - shall we say - mature person, all this b*ll*x just strikes me as a bunch of naughty schoolboys having a barny in the playground.  Pity it involves and is helping to destroy what was once a sport.  I think we forget how young Alonso is (and because Hamilton behaves in a grown-up way it's easy to do).  Personally, I just want to smack his b*m and  send them to his room without any dinner.

Smack his bum? You saucy old devil you!

You can send Hammie to my room if you want!!   ;D

F

There are two meanings to 'Basque';

a.  A rather sexy ladies under garment,

b. A resident of the rebelious region in northern Spain.

I think the Basque in this case is a Girls Blouse.

Massa (mobile chicane for the Fin) in pole and our Hamilton 2nd.  Could be interesting. Ferrari WILL be using team orders.

Just watch Massa take out Hamilton at the first corner...

Based on the grid, a distinct possibility!

MG Mark

I'll be amazed if he makes it round the first lap.

Oh well- lets hope we triumph in the conker world finals!

Well, at least the postulating spoilt spaniard didn't win.

Closed season might be worth keeping half an eye on.

Oh well... onward n upward!

But how bizarre was the pit lane interview with Bernie E?  He wanted the spaniard to win???  WHAT?!   Then he seemed to realised what he said and then wanted Hammie to win.......

F

Just shows how Elf Bernie is on the pulse of public opinion  ::)

Bit of a pity for Lewis not winning, on the basis that it would have been a record-breaking dream come true. But on the fact of mistakes he made in China and that shocking first couple of corners at Interlagos, maybe he's got to learn a bit more before being able to claim himself a worthy champ. It's bound to happen, though, isn't it?

BMW Sauber and Williams are under investigation of the Brazilian Grand Prix race stewards, autosport.com has learned.

Representatives of both teams were summoned to the stewards' office after their cars failed post-race inspection at Brazil.

The problem is believed to be in the tempature of the fuel samples taken from the cars of Williams's Nico Rosberg and BMW Sauber's Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld.

The trio finished the race in fourth, fifth and sixth respectively



Probably come to nothing....but 4th for Lewis?

It will go to court of appeal in Paris now as the stewards declared the result final.
 A Sham.

If the appeal succeeds, do Ferrari then appeal against the decision not to penalise Hamilton for the tyre infringement on Saturday?  ???

They've got to do something to keep F1 in the public eye , otherwise, there's 20-ish weeks of nothing (blessed relief) until the first race of 2008......

MG Mark

Three teams incurred the wrath of the stewards on Saturday. By all accounts it was  a mid-season rule change that caught them out. £10,000 each was the result so thats been dealt with.
Bit like Ferrari starting on the wrong tyres in Japan....they didn't know the rules either.

What sort of sport can spend 100's of £1,000,000s and have teams that don't know the rules?


Anyway...........back to proper Motorsport!   

If this appeal is won, for me F1 is over.

For f*cks sake, Kimi wins the race, and through that the championship. And over such a thing he would lose eventually?? Hamilton and his team made the mistakes themselves, and lost through that, not because there might be a small irregulation on the fuel temperature of Williams and BMW.

I know what you mean, Ferrari are normally the masters of the rulebook, like instructing Shuey to come in to the pits at the end of his final lap to take his drive-thru penalty and a win, WTF?  ???

So, because this was a championship-deciding race, the technical regulations do not apply to BMW or to Williams?

How would this pan out in a similar situation affecting the Le Mans 24 Hours?

To go along with building a quick car in the first place, at the heart of F1, like every other race series, lies the aspect of motor racing called "who can exploit the rulebook best and get away with it", whether it be the technical or race regulations.  One of the Christmas holiday "must reads" every year for UK motorsport competitors is the next season's RAC MSA blue book, to study the general and series specific regulations for whatever series you're competing in, to see if you can spot any loopholes.  And to see if there are any little gotchyas, like them changing the size of race numbers or backgrounds, to avoid getting caught out by something daft.  

Some get found out and some don't.  Who knows whether the teams involved in the tyre issues or fuel temperatures took a deliberate gamble that, if they were spotted/found out, the penalty would be only a fine (which at £10k in F1 doesn't really even rate as beer money) rather than a disqualification, reduction in points or a drop down the grid?

MG Mark

They need better policing at the top. There never seems to be any concistency in decisions. The whole stepneygate drama should have been sorted behind closed doors. And Max Mosley should quit, his comments about Jackie Stewart were plain childish.

They DID KNOW the rules (and the finish line was at the beginning of the pit lane (they changed it after that race)... but that win was due to real masters at work....  The final lap in that race was the last lap he had to take that drive-thru (because of the 5 lap limit after the team is warned, they where notified 5 laps before the flag)

I've dug a bit deeper in all this. The stupidity is, the FOM makes temperature measures, and teams base themselves on the measuring of Meteo France. There was a difference between those measurings of 'a few centigrades'. Question is now, was this 'a few' 4 centigrades? If so, that would explain why the fuel was 4 centigrades to cold compared to the FOM measuring.

I agree, regulations are regulations, and should be kept. But if we look at what happened this year on other penalties given, on this it was the TEAM who made the mistake, and not the driver, and the team should be penalised and not the driver. Otherwise we should also strip away the points of Alonso and Hamilton, just like it happend to the team McLaren. That would have been a very dull racing further on after Hungary, which is the only reason why it wasn't done.

@Catchpole:
Of course there was a team order there. Massa was very clear about that all the time, that he would support his teammate all the way to the championship. I'm not sure whether Alonso would do the same thing for his teammate, as he was still contending for the championship himself. ;)

And yes, I like the prancing horse. I'm not driving one, can't afford it. :(

Of course they were team orders, but at least they did not do it very obvious. Kimi did do a couple of very quick laps before going in to the pits and made up some time there.

Rules are rules and those that break them should face major penalty - F1 is a farcical circus though and it is the inconsistency and politics that prevail - not their rule book

Strikes me that

- perhaps there are too many needless rules - if the team can get a few extra hp from cooling the fuel then let them do it then there can be no argument.  F1 should have the worlds best engineers and race strategists looking to push the boundaries of technical and legal limits.

- what rules are then left in a much reduced rulebook should be rigidly applied and sanctions taken immediately against those that break them (where possible during the race) eg drive through penalties and grid postion loss.

- Does the rule  book grade offences so that the stewards can imply the appropriate level of penalty - I think probably not - such decisions are referred upsairs and upstairs is where the sport's biggest threat is at present

Time to move on for Bernie and Max I think and let the sport and not the politics prevail.

I think :
McLaren have been hard done to this year in the spygate hearing
However Mclaren blew this drivers title for the team by not mangaing Alonso properly and making bad decisions
Hamilton lost his way and the title by changing the way he raced and losing his head twice - not insisting tyres were changed in Shangai and trying to retake Alonso yesterday.
Kimi fully deserved the title
BMW and Williams should be punished - £50,000 each
lets hope everyone in F1 learns from this - its been a poor season from Hungary onwards - not great as ITV would like us to believe

Of course there are team orders....it's a team sport.
So why do we have the farce of a pretend slow lap or three.
We know whats going to happen so why have to hide it.
If we know a team has a number 1 and a number 2 then so be it, if a team has equal drivers then so be it. As long as we KNOW!

Ask the bookies what odds you would have got on lap 20 on a Raikkonen win....that tells you all you need to know . The sport is corrupt!

I agree Waldorf & Stadler have to go (Max & Bernie) Max in his F1 interview last week actually stated that Ferrari get special treatment in F1 and they are valued more to F1 than the other teams...No sh*t!

This goes back years this preference for the dancing mule.......and don't get me started on winning races after the flag has dropped whilst serving a stop & go...................


............and breathe  

I suspect the BMW and Williams thing will result in a slap on the wrist.  The FIA won't want to see the title outcome changed by the conduct of other teams.  At the end of the day the best driver won the title.  He made the fewest mistakes and as a result is a deserving world champ.  Hamilton will win the title someday soon, but he absolutley sh*t himself the last two races of the season, no other way to describe it.  As for team orders?....Jesus, they've been a part of the sport since the days of Auto Union and Mercedes.  It's laughable that the FIA has to have some sort of stupid regulation regarding them in the first place.
Fax

The only reason they officially banned teamorders was because some teamorders made very bad television. ;) (Austria a few years ago)

Corrupted and commercialised, what we've said already for a few years.

Just seen this on the BBC
Now I know that costs have obviously got out of control, but how can F1 claim to be 'at the pinnacle and cutting edge of motorsport' when they inplement a 10 year ban on engine development?

There goes our chance for solar powered engines!!! ;D

And fully rejecting the proposals the engine manufactures wanted. No to regenerative braking and other fuels. Good old Max, killing it bit by bit

This is getting ridiculous...

Sounds like a great plan! 8) F1 has definitely been put back to "it's a rainy Sunday, and I have nothing better to do - so let's watch F1" to me :-\

October 2009 mr Catchpole, some of us need some time to save up some pennies ;)

Careful what you wish for FS!!  ;D

LOL (http://forum.drinkingforholland.com/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif)

Your right. I can't even be bothered to read about F1 any more. It is corrupt, boring and everyone involved from the top down have got their heads stuck up their arses.

So long as we can still discuss Lewis Hamilton!  :-*

F

P.S.  And possibly Jensen Button if he gets rid of that face fungus.

Back in August:

"I'm not a judge," he (Briatore), told Autosport when asked what McLaren's punishment should be. But, he added: "Just read the regulations: for intellectual property theft the punishment is exclusion."

Hi Bob,
 Totaly agree.
Phil

Sign up on this petition
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/vote-of-no-confidence-in-max-mosley-president-of-fia.html (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/vote-of-no-confidence-in-max-mosley-president-of-fia.html)

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Done, and forwarded to friends to get them interested.

Before signing any more petitions you might want to have a look at:

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witch-hunt don't think so, McLaren cheated, they admit they did and they apologise.

I expect an apology from Martin Brundle any day now  ;)

What about Renault though?  they were in possession of McClaren technical info' and only got a slapped wrist.

You might want to read http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf (http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf) where senior Mac engineers admit they know there's information coming from a mole within Ferrari and where they prove the information would be used on the 2008 car.
[warning]long and tedious read.

Oh yes do I agree, that's one of the things I like about CA, no "extreme" fans just like-minded people looking forward to a week in June some 350 days of the year  :)