Club Arnage

I hope I don 't sound like a grumpy old man but what annoyed me and most in our group was the somewhat "excessive" usage of the safety-car, especially during the first 2 hours and in the end.
Especially in the beginning no-one of us understood why they had to use it so long, only acceptable  reason from my point of view was the armco-repair after the Rockenfeller-incident. Just the fact that is raining and some people decide for the wrong tyres shouldn't bring out the safety car.

Same at the end of the race - OK, it was heavy rain, but skillful drivers can race in those conditions! At that stage it actually destroyed the race, because the Aston-Corvette situation might still have been intersting to the finish line.

What's your opinion about this? Were you happy with the safety cars?

It was maddening, especially at the end of the race.  However, I do remember our last wet race when in the first hour we lost about 30% of the cars and so very few were running at the end.  At least there was some sort of a field left after 23 hours this time so maybe the earlier safety cars weren't so bad in retrospect.  But I certainly felt with 2 hours to go that it should have been left up to the teams to decide the fate of their machinery for themselves - although of course I don't know if trackside/barrier repairs were going on?  I've only watched up to hour 8 of the coverage so far!!!

They did seem to be brought out at the drop of a hat in qualifying and during the race, compared to previous years.  The lengthy period an hour or so into the race was, I think, due to the barrier that needing repairing after the Rockenfeller incident.  However, it seemed to be an inordinate length of time (45mins plus into the period) before anything happenend, then we were treated to the bizarre site of two orange trucks trundling along the track in the rain, from the pits to Tetre Rouge to repair it, being passed by the safety car and race cars!  It only took then about 15-20 minutes to repair it once they had got there.
 
The red flag got a fair bit of use use as well - did anyone else notice that one of those occasions (the second Wednesday qualifying session I think), that lasted only about 10 minutes, was when one of the Courages ground to a halt somewhere out on the Mulsanne.  Of course this allowed the recovery of the car to the pits, which was then back out later on in that same session.....

MG Mark

I think the safety car at the end was because there was a serious problem with the Peogeot, hence why it spent most of the time the safety car was out in the garage. When It eventually finished it was only 30 seconds ahead of Pescarola and stopped for several long minutes to save it having to do another lap.

I think Peogeot should have been disqualified for the antics in the last half an hour.

Form the ACO website -

"Due to the strong rainfall that flooded the circuit in the last hour of the race, the Race Directors, led by Daniel Poissenot, decided to neutralize the race and deployed the safety cars for 50 minutes. It was a decision that didn't affect the outcome of the race.  The first priority of all teams was to finish the race safely. The team of Peugeot No.8 had a huge warning, when the engine displayed some problems in the last hour. But 22 minutes before the checkered flag, Sebastian Bourdais was able to enter the track and ensure the second place finish for Team Peugeot Total and his teammates Sarrazin and Lamy. The French prototype finished 8 laps behind the Audi, but can be proud of a strong podium finish in its first 24 Hour entry. Pescarolo Sport finishes on the podium for the third year in a row, this year with the driver lineup of Collard, Dumas, and Boullion."

Draw your own conclusions chaps.....

MG Mark

Don't start me on the Peugeot....I could go on for a while. 

Odd how the rule about the maximum time spent on the last lap was removed for this year!

I basically agree with the RLM crew who were saying the safety car shouldn't be out just because it rains.

It wasn't removed, it was in the supplementary regs which Trusswell had clearly not read!! 

It is subject to force majeure so the conditions would probably apply to the majority of the field.  Their is a clear reg that says cars must not stop on the circuit to await the flag though.  There is also a clear reg that says the cars must go straight to parc ferme without stopping...hmmmm 

On the whole I agree that the safety car was seen too much but the Aston/Corvette duel was well and truly over by then.  The Aston had it well and truly covered - hurrah!!!   ;D

I was clearly wrong to deploy the car from our point of view trackside.

Had it been the same in previous years we would not be able to talk in awe of JJ lehto's stunning night time wet driving in the F1 Macca, or Ickx's laps in the past when hunting down slower cars in condintions not any dryer.

I do feel cheated of what may have been a epic finish between the pesca and the ailing pug, not to mention what else may have happened to the others.

However the teams clearly had put pressure on the ACO to bring them out and Hugh C was very supportive when Hindy challanged him and get a bit tetchy about it I thought.

I have to say that I support so many of the safety changes that have been made generally in the sport and particularly at Le Mans, I am sure a lot of people are like me in thinking that you don't need to see people killed or injured for the event to be exciting. But, the deployment of the safety cars, particularly at the end of the race was to too much. If it rains then it is up to the drivers and their teams to get through it, and if they end up in the gravel, then that is motor racing.

And was it truly sporting of the leading LMP2 car to just sit in his pit for 90 minutes?

Sporting? no, but given the woeful finishing record of P2 cars, in their postion I would do the same.

At least it was not 2 hours like the Corvette team parked their cars for a few years back! ;D

I thought it was sensible and practical, but I thought the same about Seb's move with the Pug too, sorry.  I remember the Cadilacs (although they were much further down the running order of course) doing the same thing a few years back.

The propensity of the ACO to disregard their own rules with total impunity doesn't really come as a shock to any of us, does it?
I thought the final safety car episode was ridiculous. Clearly both Audi and Aston Martin welcomed it from a tactical standpoint - and it made no real difference to Peugeot, because the R10 was out of range - I'm not so sure about the DBR-9 v C6R situation. Maybe an act of desperation on Fellows' part, but he was lapping some 30 secs faster than Brabham prior to safety car deployment, despite the deluge - and could, theoretically have caught him - so that part of the drama was denied us by the ACO. Rain only stops races in the States, remember!
At further risk of total partisan fanatiscism for all that is yellow and rumbly, The Corvettes 'extended pit-stop' in 2003 was not tactical from the teams point of view. Higher-ups in corporate GM demanded they sit idle so that the Caddy prototypes could catch-up - as it simply would not have done, to have the Vettes beat the Cadillacs.
Pratt & Miller now have some re-engineering to do, it would seem. Vibration caused by their MDS, whilst running behind the safety car caused the drive-shaft failure in #64 - this happened at St. Pete also, proving they are not infallable. Why Gavin wasn't allowed to limp it back on the starter motors did confuse me - I wonder if the same enforcement would have been applied to the Alphand car had it been in the same predicament...... 
I wonder if it's time to take some of the ballast out of the Corvette, on the back of this result?

They shouldn't deploy the safetycar just for some rain, good drivers are able to drive under hard circumstances, especially in endurance racing, that's part of the job.

And Peugeot...it seems quite clear that the racedirectors would like to see a peugeot to finish at the podium, and what they did at the last lap makes me feel sick..

Picked this up from the ACO site re the safety car

Quote from Hugh Chamberlain regarding the Safety Car Period
dimanche 17 juin 2007 - 14h16
 
 
Hugh Chamberlain, Team Manager of Chamberlain Synergy has informed the media that a number of Team Managers requested that the safety cars be deployed. This request was initially denied. According to Chamberlain, several Team Managers then approached the Race Director in a group with a strong posture, and the safety cars were immediately deployed. 

That sucks, so because some teammanagers think it's getting too slippery they deploy the safety cars?

When you think it's too slippery, tell your driver to drive more slowly, it's as easy as that. You always have to find the right balance between speed and risk, espcially during rain.

Very interesting Nordic.  A big Yaa Boo then to everybody who immediately blames the poor French for anything that they don't like about the race before checking their facts.  Pah.

Hee hee, I wrote that originally, it was then translated through a number of different languages it appears before being put back a version of English and being published. 

Hughie's actual words were that they had visited the Race Director "mob handed" ;D

Maybe it is time to rethink 'safety cars' in general.

We are seeing more races 'spoilt' by frequent deployment of a car that struggles to get to anywhere near race speeds, when only parts of the circuit actually require 'safe' conditions. This is more evident at Le Mans with the longer circuit length.

Perhaps a solution is to divide the circuit into sections, and have lights to notify no overtaking in the whole section. I know there are flags, but these tend to be on a corner by corner basis. Dividing the circuit up and enforcing no overtaking would mean that cars could still race on the other sections of the circuit. It would also mean the end of pit-lane closures and drivers gettin penalised for mis-use (or they run out of fuel!).

I know that the safety car is supposed to slow the traffic down, but the drivers are (supposedly) professionals who should know how to drive in slippery conditions! Nullifying the race for just part of the lap would, in my opinion, be a better way to keep racing alive.

Time for a rethink I think!

The lights are there and used regularly aren't they?  Piglet would know for sure.

My marshal colleagues will tell you that if you work trackside the only safe ('ish) way of working a live track is with a safety car (or in the case of LM three safety cars. 

On the whole, at every level, drivers do not respond well to lights, flags or dancing girls, they only slow down when forced to do so by a safety car. 

In the UK a couple of years ago we tried a "safety car flag" which was a flag that was shown at which point the leader would take on the role of "safety car" and slow the field down.  It failed disamally and was withdrawn very quickly.

As a race interrupter, the quickest way to get an incident cleared, track rebuilt etc. is by throwing a red flag as the trackworkers can work quickly without constantly watching their backs - given that this isn't a great way to run an endurance race the safety cars are the next best option. 

Even then at LM we saw a number of incidents where cars went off under the safety car (the 44 spinning at pit entry comes to mind!) so pro drivers or not (and of course a vast number of them aren't) I can't see that you could retrieve vehicles, repair barriers etc. without physically ensuring that the cars slow down and if the only way of achieving this is with safety cars then that's how it should be. 

Given the conditions at LM I doubt that the safety cars were having difficulty keeping the field at a suitable pace, it didn't appear to be like that from the screens. 

Working stragegy under the safety car is something for the teams to manage and often differentiates the good teams from the excellent teams and with three cars on track there were three opportunities to get on the end of a train.   To me the safety car is something that goes with racing, you can't recover cars, drivers etc. from a live track so somehow you have to manage it so that this can be done safely - or you throw a red. 

As far as I know there are yellow lights around the circuit that back up the flags, I can check but I don't have first hand knowledge of this. 

Whether the use of the safety cars at LM was appropriate or not is something I don't have any information on. 

Edited to add - often on a long circuit there are "jobs" waiting to be done around the track that are done whilst the track is neutralised, it's not just the area that the main incident is in. 

I've looked at some video footage and yes, the circuit lights are there and do operate.

On the other hand, I see the actions of the Race Director as a typically French reaction i.e. complete surrender!  :(

So the ACO are approached "mob handed" by the Team Managers and rather than standing firm and reading them the riot act, the ACO simply toss their principles into the dustbin like so much poubelle and back down to the perceived aggression. Bloody French.....  >:(

OK there is an issue with excessive use of the safety cars, but...

Did any of you see the safety car itself trying too hard to stay on the track as the repair work was being done/

The approach to the stupid Dunlop kittylittercarpark was a treat for the eye, real racing cars pushing the safety car drivers to their (not especially elegant) limit, the one guy was almost on two wheels trying far too hard to keep the real cars behind him.
 :)

I've tried to ignore this post cause it gets me all rilled. Safely car should have been out for barrier repairs and nothing else! Those guys know the risks and are well paid- they are racers right? Team managers should have been told to sod off too. I drive rally cars through trees at 100+ in the rain without run offs or armco or safety cars. I don't get paid to do it. If I can't handle it I will stop. So should they. Would Moss, Ickx or Pedro hold up a note with safety car on it to the cameras?     

If you dislike the French so much why do you bother going to Le Mans?

If you dislike the French so much why do you bother going to Le Mans?
[/quote]


Heaven forbid Zarse didn't go to Le Mans oldtimer, I mean the event might as well be cancelled. ;D

I think the King of Commer has issues with our Rillette munching chums- don't mention farm subsidies, he goes ballistic!

Had it existed he could have written his comments on his much favoured 'moaning minnies' board then  ;)

This is the 24hrs of Le Mans.... I was totally bemused at the side of the track when the first safety car was deployed just because it was raining... It is supposed to be a test of endurance.

Like many have said, let the teams decide what tyres they want and if needs be get the car in a make atlerations to the set up.

And then again at the end of the race. Actions like this erode what the entire event is all about. They raced as normal in torrential rain at the Nurburgring 24hrs. It did get stopped though for a while due to heavy fog.

I think the race should just run its own course. Of course if there are other hazards on the track then deploy the safety car, but not just because of rain.

I've watched some of the footage from Motors and the first safety car period is very strange as their doesn't seem to be a reason for it.  BUT my recollection from the media centre is that there was a reason for each of the safety car periods (the last one being to allow Peugeot to finish...) - The Radical is shown on the footage as being trashed back and front just before the first safety car period and I wonder whether it did some barrier damage which was being fixed.  I really can't see why otherwise the safty cars would have been deployed?

What is amazing watching the footage is how long it takes to get a barrier crew out to the barrier after Mike Rockenfeller's crash - it must be 15-20 minutes at best!   That seems an incredible amount of time to get to something that was always likely to happen. 

Piglet, I take it you've now had opportunity to read Jox Jottings 2 for confirmation that you were correct in your summary? I think Jock  ??? sums it up pretty well. No doubt he also incites accusations of anti-French bigotry from others with his comments about the actions of the ACO.

In fairness though Andy,  there isn't much more room up on this soapbox that Jock and I currently inhabit  ;D  So the fact that he and I agree shouldn't be taken as meaning very much, we have a fairly long history of being wrong together  ;D

It does make me cross though, write regs and run to them otherwise you have no certainty and anarchy... 

 ::)

To watch a motor race. Why, what had you in mind?

Fortunately, due to the proximity of Le Mans to the coast, I am able to conduct my affairs in "splendid isolation" surrounded only by wholsome English people. Therefore I don't have to mix with foreign races like the Dutch or Germans, or heaven forbid, the wretched French. I find I rarely have to speak to a French person other than for the purposes of shopping, ordering their nasty foreign food, doling out helpful advice on personal hygene and/or the provision of gratuitous insults to Johnny Garlic.  ::)

Anarchy was invented in France and I blame that Jean-Paul Sartre, he started it all.  ;)

Errr yes. The whole DfH group is all for sudden British Andy? (we had 1 American, 2 Canadians, 4 Germans and 24 Dutchies in our group this year, no British whatsoever ;))