Club Arnage

Heard about this site whilst sitting in traffic listening to RLM,

anyway, this was my 5th visit to Le mans, so I'm not a newbie but still way off a lot on here in number of visits.  My first being the now famous Moist 2001.  However I went this year and could not help but feel that Le mans was different, not the same anymore.  For one thing the corporates seemt o have well and truly taken over.  Never felt like a second class citizen at le mans before, in fact it was always traditionaly the one place where owners of say ford escorts camped quite amicably next to aston martin owners etc.  But this year the ACO seemed more interested in ensuring the VIPs were shuttled around all over the place and also had the best viewing areas.  In fact it was almost on certain occasions, get of the way there's a VIp coming through.  Pissed me off something rotten.

Also the danger factor, we all love Le mans for the crazy stuff, but this year it seemed as a pedestrian bloody hard to stay alive.  Plus on top of that the ever annoying mopeds being allowed to ride around in the packed parts even behind the grandstands, just stupid.  The ACo needs to realise Le mans is as high a profile event as any F1 GP so they need to get into the 21st century.

Oh and the scanners, much better, but the security precence seemed a little bit excessive again,

The worst thing of Le mans now is the inability to take pictures, not many clear viewing areas now that are not obscured by either a wire fence or a concrete slab, factor that in with the inability to get tot he more obscure parts of the circuit, meant my pics were lacking this year.

One of the worst things though, as much as i hate to say it, was the sheer number of brit newbies this year.  There were too many newbies who forgetting the basic ettiquettes of Le mans camping.  Like the tits who decided to start a war of words with another foreign set of campers.  the tits who decided it was good fun to sit there trying to do burn outs in a scooby ( yeah that will work dicks), just seemed there were a few too may boyo brits at le mans this year, spoiling the event for others.  And also the tits driving liek its a race track on route to le mans, Yeah it is nice to drive in france but, i tell ya, drive like some of them did and you deserve to get busted byt the police, just out and out dangerous.

Dunno i love le mans with a passion, but just finding that either i am getting old and moany ( yes nearly 30!!!! soon) but think the Golden era is over for le mans, but its still good but just not the same.  I actually prefer our regular trip to Nurburgring now.  But i will be going next year, but just hoping its not just me noticing these littel differences.

PS great site

Ant
Have to say I agree completely with you mate. My first trip was in '94 and I was amazed by the friendliness, camerarderie and access, not only to the track but also to the teams and drivers. [At this point I should say massive thanks to Oliver Gavin who invited us into the #64 Corvette Garage on Friday morning].
We were having our usual debrief in the car on the way back yesterday and discussed how things had changed a little every year since '94.
The event is VERY corporate now and I do get p****d off with people in suits being ferried about the circuit and with those poxy motorised scooters everywhere. The thieving on the campsites seems to be getting much worse although we've never had a real problem with that.
I sense though that the French, particularly the locals who, let's face it are a tolerant bunch, are really getting hacked off with young, drunk Brits who are not there for the race but there for one reason - to get pissed and make a bloody nuisance of themselves. It gives the rest of us a bad name. I am sick and tired of people just shouting at French shopkeepers and bar staff and making no attempt to speak the language. Make a bloody effort you knobheads.
I agree that the "Golden Age" does seem to have passed and for the first time ever we are just thinking about giving it a miss next year.
Sad but true.

Steve

I agree Steve - there should be no place for these idiots and, on that basis, I urge you to reconsider your plans for next year...  If the decent folk start attending in fewer numbers there will be no hope...

You know what my friend, come January I just know I'll be filling in the Motor Racing International booking form and rallying the troops despite the hassles!
I was talking to an elderly French chap from Arnage who told me that he and his family used to look forward to the "British Invasion" every year and to the special atmosphere it created. Now he hates it! That can't be right, it just can't. He is totally fed up with the stupid, drunk and unruly behaviour which, he agrees, is caused by a small minority but which tarnishes the lot of us.
I dunno, I might just try a different way of doing it, maybe an off-circuit campsite or a small b&b locally. Might even get the train down, I'm a bit long in the tooth for all this camping malarkey.

Cheers and let's keep this grumpy old men stance up, it makes me feel better!

Steve

Is this thread reserved for grumpy old men or can us girlies join in too?  ;)

I don't have the energy to write too much, I've written war and peace on another thread.  I agree entirely though, I wish the yobs would piss off back to the football terraces and where ever else they come from. 

If it didn't suit us so well to be close to the circuit this would have been my last year camping. I'm going to write to the ACO about some of what went on and hopefully they might take some action, I think they want to change things.

The trouble is that will change things for all of us that know how to behave properly. 

Now those sentiments I can relate to  ;D

Re. the football shirted f wits


With european footy championships being held next year, maybe, if we're lucky some of them will bog off to Austria and Switzerland for the duration.

I have to say I have always avoided the rowdy side of the event. I always arrive on the circuit on Saturday and leave straight after the race. Also my team is based very much out in the country, making a customary trip in to the 'thick' of it on Sunday morning, visiting the Porsche curves, Tetre Rouge and then back to Mulsanne for the finish. I have to say that this year was particularly pleased to get back to the country and might resort to buying just virage Mulsanne and Arnage tickets next year. Particularly as the viewing in those areas is now so enhanced with the introduction of the screens that run constant updates on race position (fantastic thank you ACO!!!). Having avoided then all the sad episodes that other members refer to here, then I have to say that I feel that the experience was better than ever this year and I welcome so many of the changes that have taken place. I hope that all the posters on this thread will attend next year as I feel from your notes that you have a positive approach to the whole thing and the last thing we want is for the event to be hijacked by the hoards described earlier. Perhaps you can join me and team Monkey for a civilized beer or two (all order in my finest linguaphone French) in the country down at Arnage while we watch the worlds greatest motor race go by. See you next year Monkey.

Having been to a every race since 1980 I do feel in a postion to comment and agree that the atmosphere does vary every year.

This year on the Annexe I thought is was a bit quiter than normal, which may be down to the bad weather, but elsewhere I did notice a huge increase in the 'lads out on the piss' type of group.

I went to town on friday for the first time in a few years and it was not an overly pleasant time, while not as bad as the 'Jag years' when it really was getting out of hand, the amount of disrespect shown to locals, not just by the brits but the danes and germans was unpleasant and put me in mind of a football type of event.


(On a personal note, To the cock in the white Mitshi EVO with the big boy wing on, I hope your dick falls of, your driving is shite)

I brought two newbies with me - a couple of chaps in their 70's who had been wanting to do LM for years.  Their seats in the front of the Lagache grandstand (thanks Steve) sadly brought them into immediate contact with a bunch of these pillocks, who were on the terraces just in front, who insisted on spraying water and other cr*p on the circuit and other spectators.  Happily, they're very tolerant but it wasn't the best introduction to the great race.

Luckily, they were very comfy in a nice b&b near me and were well looked after so it didn't spoil their weekend but it so easily could have done.  What it does do, of course, is make the locals more strict with security which will eventually bring a stop to the innocent fun which most of us have.  It really makes me embarassed to be British.  I just put on my best Frog accent and pretend to be a local.  Pr*ts. >:(

Well well and I just thought that it was me, getting older and less tolerant maybe but I empathise with everything that has been said.
From a personal point of view I did not enjoy this year as much as previous. The atmosphere was different with subtle changes taking the edge of things. What summed it up on the boozy boy front was hearing that "this would be great for a stag weekend do" and the piss head wearing a small red thong who walked through Musee giving us grief and being a total w***nker. On top of that was the lack of prommonading on Friday, the move by the ACO to a one square metre pre errected tent scheme and a general feeling that at anytime there could be one big punch up.
My feeling is that this event will strangle itself in the next few years. The ACO generally do not give a toss about the likes of us and providing they can generate cash from the corporate monkeys then they will carry on in their own sweet way. The weekend seems to have de-generated into one huge piss up with the locals taking huge amounts of flak from yobs of all nationalities. Its a real shame but I have already made the decision not to go again next year and along with a considerable number of others in our group and friends that we have met year after year we are going to sit back and watch developments.

I've been to the last 8 LMs and tend to agree that the overall atmosphere is less pleasant than it once was: the feeling is that the whole event is bigger, with more people travelling and camping, hence more gridlock on the roads, more controls from the CRS and the likes.

It always rubs a bit to see corporate sponsorship take over, but if the money made by Audi et al ferrying big wigs around, can be ploughed back into the circuit and the event (such as the redevelopment of the village, or the provision of the new screens at Mulsanne/Arnage), then IMHO it's got to be an overall good thing. Without the suits' involvement, the big names would vanish (after all, in major areas like the UK and the US, Le Mans gets seemingly bugger all coverage) and we'd be left with a field full of privateers and 2nd rate works teams.

Radio Le Mans still bumbles on making a sometimes laughably bad job become essential listening.

I didn't go up to HA on Mad Friday (couldn't be bothered to walk from Blue and no way was I going to drive), but if the atmosphere was anything like it was on the road between Blue & MB, it must have been more like "I predict a riot" than the good natured if a bit irresponsible japes of recent years. The CRS have killed a lot of the innocent fun (the promenading, parking up at Arnage and just shooting the breeze looking at some nice cars): a couple of people told me that this year they weren't even allowing anyone to stop at the side of the road. Having said that, the Gendarmes were more reasonable about the use of the back road (from Arnage into Camping blue, which avoided all the grief of queuing on the main drag past the circuit). If only they and the ACO marshalls could do a better job of managing the crowds of pedestrians and the traffic along that route, particularly on Saturday morning, then it would be much smoother for all.

The security situation is sad, but perhaps inevitable: hopefully it'll be cyclical and we'll get back to the days of "we're all in this together", though I'm not so sure.

I'll be back next year :)

And I forgot to say that we were also rolled over on Saturday. Every single one of 12 tents gone through but luckily all of the valuable stuff was either on our person or in the boots of cars. One bag was stolen however, it contained clothes and some other bits and pieces but we did find a wallet that had been dumped at our site. It contained nothing of value other than some personal stuff in French that was probably important to someone. Thieving has probably always happened at one level or another but when its in your face it really sucks. The group next to us had their car doors tried on the same day but gave the wannabe thieves some choice reasons to move on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Due to the increasing level of general unpleasantness (not everywhere I concede) we were thinking that if we come next year - and I take Oldtimer's comment seriously, that it would be a great shame if we genuine enthusiasts were put off by the activities of others. To that end I've been thinking about other ways of doing the trip and have started to look into travelling by rail to Le Mans. At first sight it actually looks fairly reasonable.

Termie, I wonder if I could ask your advice here - do you know of any decent b&b places near to the circuit? I know that we'd be without a car so they would have to be in somewhere like the town, Arnage or Mulsanne even but I must admit that it would be nice to be away from Maison Blanche campsite for a change.

Any ideas gratefully received.

Steve

PS
Why don't we all write to the ACO expressing our concerns? I can put up with increased security if I were to stay on a campsite again as I don't cause anyone else any problems!

I think you're forgetting the fact that they don't really want us there anyway! If they get loads of letters from dirty smelly British campers they may very well think "oh great, now we can close another campsite and give our corporate guests more space to look pompous"

All this talk of theft reminded me that it is nothing new, back in the mid 80's we had a bag stolen, found in a ditch a few hours later, it is not, I don't think any worse this year than last. It does only take a a couple of people to cause alot of problems for many.

I am not troubled by the corporate side of things, being honest, given the chance the partake in some, most on here would to some extent, I know i have via my dads contacts within 3M we were able to look at the event from the otherside of the fence a couple of times, and jolly good it was to.

If Audi want to fly Seal and Jk in and give private concerts whats the harm to us. Without the big investments by those companies then the entrance price would need to go up and the new plaza would not have been built, while not to everyones taste it is much better than the shanty town it had become.

Maybe it is all cyclical. When I first went in the early 80's it was deader than Elvis and the races were a bit of a snore too. Then it got great from 88 thro' 93 - then the ACO really lost the plot, before it came good again in '98. At this point in my humble Le Mans career, I started to become a lot more interested in the social aspect than the race itself - though this also seemed to coincide with the discovery of Le Mans as a destination event. I'm not all that tollerant of having piss sprayed at me through a super-soaker in the name of 'fun', so latterly during my Sarthe attendances, I've done my best to stay away from situations where I might end-up in a physical confrontation. Sadly I missed the 2005/6/7 editions, but I will be back there next year. However, from what I've read here during the past couple of days, it sounds like things really have changed a lot in 3 short years.

I don't think that it is over - but it does seem to be under increasing pressure in terms of spectator behaviour and the numbers attending versus the supporting infrastructure (or lack of it).  

The circuit changes have been made for various reasons, and the supporting facilities do seem to improve year on year, even if some of the character is lost in the process.  Amd that is where the corporate stuff comes in.  In the years that I've been going, the grandstands have got better, the number of pits (and grid size) has increased, the old view back up the track from the Indianapolis corner was restored this year with the removal of the screening (hurrah), the Tetre Rouge bank is now a great place to watch from and, yes, I do really miss thing like the fair (where/how it was) and the straight run down from the Dunlop Bridge to the Esses, viewed from outside the circuit in line with the track at dusk or dawn.  The campsite facilities are getting better - I remember two porcelain footprint traps and a couple of pig troughs that comprised the Houx ablutions at one point, and I certainly don't wish for them to return!

In terms of the spectator behaviour, there are a lot more people attending now, so given that the various activities happen roughly in the same place/time from year to year, any "bad" element is likely to stand out more now in any given situation or place, given the increase ni numbers and the desire to "outdo" each other.  I mean, Arnage used to be a good load of simple fun - a bit of wheelspinning, promendaing, a good-natured crowd and the odd bit of chucking water around.  Then came more water and water pistols.  Then improved "contents", including beer and p*iss thrown from jugs etc etc.  

This year, we didn't really see much of any of that, because we simply decided to avoid it and find other things to do - Friday was a brilliant day - got the supermarket shopping in, drove down the Mulsanne (lots of nice cars and good-natured crowds parked up near Hunaudieres), followed by the Classic British Welcome, CA Cavalcade and the DfH party. Simply went nowhere near HA roundabout, the drag strip in front of Bleu, Arnage, the town centre, or anywhere else like that.  End result was a great day out and about, with a bundle of nice people, doing something different.

All in all, I think that the Golden Era is still there - it just takes more to find it and, in some ways, we have to make some of it happen too.

MG Mark    

Well well well, I'm just so glad it isn't only me. I've been to Le Mans for the last 25 years on the trot, total of 26, and this is the first time I'm thinking of not going next year.
The village, although having improved facilities, has lost pretty much all of its character.
I could not believe after just past the first hour, with a bit of rain, the safety car came out and stayed for over an hour. Yes it was heavy to begin with but it was short, sharp, showers. After a while it had stopped but the safty cars stayed out.
This is Europe! it rains and you race.
I agree with the previous comments that it has become very much geared towards corporate facilities and also seen a number of first time "Numpties" which I feel have let the usual crowd down.

well the WANCs  have camped on MB for the past 16 yrs but this year we drove down in cars instead of the Winnebago and stayed 20 miles southof the circuit.The drive in each morning was on a deserted D road with long sweeping bends and longer straights,an absolute pleasure.We watched more of the race  because we had nowhere else to go once we'd parked.Normally we'd crash out in the camper watching the race on sat.telly.
We drove out somewhere different each night for food and we were lucky that the guesthouse owner was organising the hospitality for Peugeot.He invited us to go to the hospitality to watch the race,which was overlooking the pit entrace and served us with champagne and beer and gave us parking permits.
We all agreed that we'll be doing the same next year and the change to our usual routine was so refreshing and rekindled my enthusiasm for the race

PM

2007 was my seventh le mans - the first in 1999 and of course I agree with the sentiment that in respect of behaviour it has changed for the worse but I wonder will the ACO do anything to change it much - I think not. 

Visitor numbers are up, local revenues in shops and bars etc will be up so will there be much local complaint from Le mans residents I wonder??

I have heard people say how they will only go to the classic from now on so the ACO is still getting revenues from those who are displaced to that event and I cant see a significant financial driver for the ACO to displace the hooligan element.  If more and more of the responsible do stop going as seems likely it leaves more scope for the bad behaviour to escalate.  I agree with Mark that we have to continue to make Le Mans our type of event rather than give up on it to our memories.

In defence of some of the younger hooligan element on our site -- who got some words from disgruntled neighbours for blatting around on mini motos, reving cars etc etc  they came across to talk to us about le mans and cars and they did have the same infectious enthusiasm for the event that many of us know. 

Hopefully with the redevelopment of HA the roundabout will go and the site of the main problem areas removed.

On the walk to MB friday night we passed a group of lads on a stag weekend who were stopping cars and trying to open doors and squirt them with their super soakers. They look on the French family inside one of them was worried.
To me they should clamp down on the mad friday burnouts, gopeds and waterpistols, then the chav element will go somewhere else.
Once inside the DFH party faith was restored in Le Mans freindship, cheers lads.

We camped in MB Zone D and didn't have any problem with our " neighbours " nor did we have anything nicked. I didn't see anything different to the last 9 yrs that I've been to Le Mans, the idiots have always been there if you want to see them. We stayed away from all the known trouble spots, Houx roundabout etc., but did have a brilliant time at the Dfh party, thanks lads!
During the 40yrs I've been going to continental race meetings my worst experienc was at Spa for a GP 10yrs ago when at 2am we had to move campsites due to the behaviour of some German fans that were out of control to such an extent that my 11yr old nephew was physically sick with fright. As I was marshalling we moved up to their campsite at Les Combes for the rest of the weekend.
For me Le Mans still has that special unique atmosphere despite the changes that have taken place and I will be back next year , camping as always only next year I will be in possesion of a free bus pass!! Does it work in France I wonder? So no the Golden Era is still well and truly alive and kicking

I was disappointed at the closure of the Arnage/Indy corners on Friday lunchtime (reason unclear but it is possible the road was closed due to a pedestrian fatality according to a pistonheads thread).

Once the police became involved a few years back it settled down to be a great collection of varied exotic cars.And at lunchtime its too early for pissed idiots to spoil it.

Later in the afternoon I stood by the road at Bleu/MB again. It was good natured and very few water pistols to be seen. Nice bit of wheelspin from the Merc E220CDI !

That was closed down by the gendarmes at about 4pm but no one seemed to mind much.

What really pi55ed me off was when trying to get back to MB at 3pm on Sunday (perhaps not a good time) that the police had blocked the road to bleu/MB from the Porsche curves roundabout , unfortunately we decided to go on towards BSJ , big mistake this road was also blocked just after BSJ and they were directing cars essentially to a car park !   Now that is bad traffic management... so we parked up and walked  back to MB on the track, just in time to get the heaviest rain of the weekend.

The Mulsanne to Indy section has been closed for a number of years due to it getting a bit mad on fridays. I think the police tried to control it but it takes too many of them, so it is easier to close it.
On the walk up to MB i passed a police van and they looked mightly pissed off as cars were still doing burnouts near them.

This was my 7th Lemans and I echo the sentiments from all the previous posts.  Significantly, the increased 'Chav' presence and mentality...  It seems to have become a popular destination for Stag parties and that tribal mentality, i.e. lets get a load of stickers made up with our names on our clapped out ford cougars and TVRs, drive 400+ miles, get pis*ed and miss the race... what race?! 

I have to say, I prefer the layout of the new village and seemed oblivious to the more 'corporate' nature of proceedings - It did however seem like us 2nd class citizens were not allowed to the presentation ceremony this year - not that we bothered to venture down this year due to the inclement weather.

On the subject of the sh*ty weather - I have read that by law of averages, it's a wash out every 4-5 years (the last being 2001 as I remember!!!)... Let's take something positive and hope the neanderthal brit tos*ers are put off from coming again.

Not so , I was down there in 2006 , parked up looked at cars then drove off in the direction of Mulsanne without any problems.

Police had set up 2 sets of speed traps to take a few euros from the less observant.

yeah i saw them, that was happening just as we arrived at  Le Mans.  That is also not much fun, turning up at le mans at 11pm on the friday, every one is wankered, and all you wanna do is find your group to get your tickets and site and get your tent up ASAP.  And all any one else wants to do is shout burnout burnout and open your car door, thank god for centrla locking

Yep i agrea about the weather, i have been saying that we were due a wet one, and i think we got off lightly.  This year was no where near as bad as 2001 which saw flooded tents and general misery.  Least this year when it did rain it was just wet but still very warm.  When the race finished iwatched from Porsche Curves with a waterproof jacket and a pair of shorts on, but in 2001 the rain was accompanied by genuinely cold wind. not nice. Plus best of all, at least saturday afternoon and night was dry and warm.

Oh and don't let my comments make you think it was just the brits.  i know too that other nationalities are just as bad and sometimes worse.  I still remember the impromptu euro techno rave that happened at 5 am on the Nurburgring campsite DTM weekend.  Not Fun!!!

I agree totally with the comments above this was my 6th Le mans and seemed to encounter a much larger gathering of Idiots of all nationalities but is it Just me or is it a british thing to feel the urge to get your tackle out whenever possible. Was anybody else down at the Stella Bar late Sat night/ early Sun morning to see that prat running around the bar naked. Then getting kicked by a female member of Staff who was rightly cheered on her re-entering the bar.

Also had the pleasure of some alleged French Pescarolo fans on the start grid who booed every national anthem they didn't like ie god save the queen, German and italian anthems, dropped there flags down over peolpes heads as they tried to take photo's of the proceedings and pestered some poor man by throwing every piece of their rubbish at the back of his head.

I know there is always going to be an element of this but I too seemed to encounter more than normal this year also. >:(

Our group have been regular atendees at the race over the last 10 years, but I have to say that I wonder where we go from here.
I have 2 "beefs" that I will be airing with the parties concerned...

ACO..."Join Club 24" is the cry from the advertising literature...my question is why?
ACO stand tickets, camping tickets ...no priority booking or availabilty of said tickets it would appear. They appear to have been predomianantly sold to the travel compaines. Discounted entry tickets??? see below

The 2 major tour companies...Take the cost of the aforementioned stand ticket in €, multiply it by 1.5 and put £ in front....oh and by the way you have to buy a full entance ticket from us which, guess what, is priced using the same fomula. Discounted ACO member entry no use at all.
"Join us on the Arnage Excurion"....£15 each, timed bus there and back...sounds great eh? However, when you come out of the enclosure, come and find us for your return bus at our bus stop, which we've conviently located in the middle of the queue for the ACO provided free bus.  I am staggered there wasn't a riot, especially when the locals forced the rear dorr of the bus and got on anyway.
"Enjoy our hospitality tent"....except " if it's raining, don't come here"...charmed I'm sure!

I appreciate that times change, the event changes and nothing is asit was, but have got to a situation where the fans are just cash cows to be fleeced as much as possible?

Maybe we have to do as suggested and dig a bit deeper to find new LM experiences but I have a slightly bitter taste over the direction that we appear to be heading.

I've rarely read a thread on Club Arnage with so many negative posts and it's made me quite cross. I've attended every race since 1988, this year was my twentieth, so I feel I'm reasonably competent to comment on how I see things.

There seems to be a a large degree of "rose tinting" going on here. Yes, the golden era was fifteen to twenty odd years ago; the golden era of hooliganism that is. If anyone thinks the hooligan element is worse now than twenty years ago, I'm sorry people but you are plain wrong. You've obviously all forgotten or are unaware of the Our Nige (Mansell) and JAG-U-ARHHH-LA-LA-LA people, there were bloody thousands of them. During that era I saw a number of serious assaults on ACO staff and other workers at the curcuit, the swearing and general atmosphere of menace and belligerence was far worse than anything on offer today. I've not even mentioned the England v Germany issues, the taunting on the terraces of Porsche and Merc fans or indeed a mass brawl in the old Beire Kellar in the village (for those old enough to remember that place) which saw tables, chairs and glasses flying about and people being beaten on the floor.  I defy anyone to tell me anything like that went on this year. So some French people were booing God save the Queen were they?  I'm very surprised that the supposed massive increase in British Chavs, boorish Nationalists to a man no doubt, let them get away with it! The French wouldn't have bloody well dared try that on back in 1989! So I'm at odds with the notion that this year "chavs" attended in increased numbers. I hear this comment every year and I'm sorry but it's complete baloney. For what it's worth I thought the numbers of what might trendily be termed "socially excuded youngsters" were significantly reduced. In fact I saw pretty much zero bad behaviour from wednesday through sunday. Sure there are some idiots but you just need to know how to avoid them. For example HA roundabout and Arnage on the friday are now a no-go zone. A couple of our lads went there and met some absolutely ghastly fellows for whom violence was all. Paul and Chris very gently took the piss out of these idiots and we subsequently had terrific fun aping and mocking them and their distorted values all weekend.

Furthermore, I reckon the numbers of "drunks" walking around the curcuit seems much less than in the "golden era" too; the lack of the fair ground has put paid to that. Incidentally, the fair is now utterly pathetic, and the 80's were the golden era as far as that's concerned.

What other myth's about the old days are there? Oh yes, The Village. The new one is magnificent. I for one bemoaned the destruction of the old "rotunda" champagne bar a few years ago, as nothing was built to replace it. But just think back to the horrible old collection of woodworm-ridden tumbling down sheds, smelly concrete bunker house toilets, the dust, the over-crowding and people pissing everywhere. Now tell me you want that lot back? No thanks!

Really, I could go on; tent theft, traffic, the police, ticket prices, the ACO, bad driving and all the rest of it, people bitched about it then and do now. So for me it's a case of the old plus ca change and that meme chose thing. Golden era over? Nonsense!

Amen to that brother, Hear Hear, and Hallelujah, Hosanna and all that - see the "What I enjoyed at Le Mans" thread  ;D

MG Mark

I have never been one for complaining formally; usually a few days after any bother, whether on holiday or otherwise, I run out of steam and move on.
My LM experience this year was disappointing and disheartening. To save a lot of verbiage the problems were:

• Theft on campsites
• the pretence of security

• the appalling food available at the circuit
• the lack of sufficient sanitary provision for campers

• drunken yobs
• corporate influence

the obstructed views of the cars

• the loss of promenading opportunities, (ie Arnage corner on Friday)
• the use of the 'safety car' to sanitise all of the challenge that the elements posed

The ACO rely on the income from Brits, Dutch, Danes etc., to finance the events at La Sarthe. Without the punters they are nothing. Unless we go,(to the 24hrs, Classic etc.), the ACO itself will collapse, and corporate sponsorship will only want to support the race as long as there is a 'public' to advertise their products to and feel more important than.

My experience with a thief at 5am on Sunday morning mentioned by others on another thread was demonstrative of so much that is going wrong. We can't go around simply beating crims up, these days you are as likely to get stabbed for your trouble, there were four working together in my particular instance. However; when you point out the crim to security staff, you expect them to do something about it, (they watched as he 'tried' a few other tents with his three mates), rather than standing around smoking Gitane and watching the race. The 'security' on the campsites was a sham and ironically some of the crims used, "only security" as their excuse when caught in the act.
The Police of any description were not interested in my complaint at all! 'Private land' they said!

The crime has turned into an epidemic, we can only take sensible personal precautions, the ACO haveto act professionally, or any respect they still retain will be diluted and then lost, as I fear will the race.

The cost of employing Police inside the circuit would be an expense, however; they have the professional skills and the authority to act summarily. When the cost is spread between all of those who attend it would be minimal expense per head, and what a fantastic relief it would be for us all to know that matters were in safe hands. It would be a cost that I would be happy to suffer.

Can I implore those who speak of providing our own security, to think again? We will be accussed of being vigilanties, someone will get hurt and the damn crims might even sue or bring their mates back.

On the subject of changes to come, I have heard the following from a very reliable source.
ACO are intending to insist that all camping is in tents provided by them,at considerable expense, as with their experiments this year at various locations with Quecha rabbit hutches. No personal cooking facilities will be allowed inside the circuit perimeter; unless inside a caravan/motorhome etc. which will have their own site, probably BSJ. They will restrict grandstand seating to all but corpoates in Durand and ACO tribunes.

What a bloody disaster! We are representative of so many of the ordinary folks who attend simply to enjoy themselves, why don't we complain by letter/petition to the ACO? I have no doubt that were we to contact all of those with whom we have a link that they would support such a move and the numbers would be substantial. As a group we are powerful, our economic input to La Sarthe should not be underestimated and without us there is no race.

On the up side the DfH party was as good as ever and the auction a great success.

We need to act soon or lose our excuse to escape the apron strings (of home and work) for a day or two.

How about it?

Doug

It is a shame that there are a higher number of complaints this year, we, the SPS crew, had a great time, even some who detest camping (still been going for 6/7 years though) especially in the rain, had no real complaints. I guess the rain will always put a dampener on it, apparently Beasuredore (sp) was like a quagmire (sp) but a work virgin colleague who was there has vowed to go back next year.

I feel sorry for the victims of theft, yes the problem seems to be getting worse and the ACO must improve security before somebody takes it in there own hands and it escalates into a bigger problem.

I was not impressed by the behaviour of a minority at the POO bar as it reflected badly on the vast majority of civil Brits that helps to make LM what it is (fortunately NO CA shirts were involved, I believe)

So in some ways not a vintage year but more than made up for by the CA crew, DFH crew, and our French hosts who remain very tolerant of a bunch of very daft buggers.

I'll be back next year but with a map rather than just memory for finding my way about , and a cheapo tent alarm just to amuse the nocturnal scavengers, and maybe a spare pair of jeans in case it rains again.
Each year you learn a bit more and meet more good people and the good memories are the one to stick.
Don't let the bstds grind you down.
just make a note of what you would do better (if anything) next year and stick to it.

Roll on 2008!

In general I think the facilities have improved enormously - the new village looks sanitised maybe, but the trees are still young so it will improve - and the bit with the view over the paddock was a great innovation.  The loos around the village are so much better than ever before - more showers etc.  What's wrong with the food?  The cold tray meal at 10 euros with starter, meat, salad, bread and cheese is excellent and I could live on Rillette baguettes.  Also great nosh in the bleu car park.  The Balcon and the new ACO members' area at MB are both great - especially given that they are temporary as the new Welcome area is delayed.

The Tertre Rouge banking is a great improvement and well thought-out, especially the provision of disabled access.

ACO membership is excellent value, the savings on entrance tickets and camping alone can pay for your membership and the literature (driver profiles etc - plus the run-down hour by hour) is a good plus.  The bars in the stand, the old museum and at MB are a good peaceful places to chill out with good clean loos and really pleasant staff (who greet me each year like an old friend - is this because I always say hello to them when I get there and thank them when I leave?) - plus they're 10% cheaper than elsewhere.

As far as booking is concerned - that's fine - it's first come, first served.  Just book earlier - it works.

There is a lot of corporate stuff but there wasn't much evidence of it in the ACO grandstand - I for one was sitting amongst a whole bunch of people who were knowledgeable and obviously interested in the race - a stark contrast to the last time I was at a British GP in 1990 when nobody around me knew what they were looking at.  Most of the corporate stands seemed to be concentrated on the inside of the circuit at MB - not a spot that I remember watching from.

I was lucky, I had nothing stolen (the few things I took that are worth anything were locked in the car during the 1 and a half hours I was asleep.  Apart from the cretins at the poo bar (who thankfullly departed pretty smartish), the idiots in front of the Lagache grandstand (who thankfully weren't interested in the race so departed pretty smartish) and the prat with the Focus who insisited on churning up the mud outside DFH as we were packing up - everybody else was charm itself and I thought the poor staff on the gate coped really well with a system which must have been as much of a nightmare for them as it was for us - they were still smiling by the 10th time they scanned my ticket!

I wonder if we try too hard these days and whether our rose tinted memories of how it once was have as much to do with the way we've expanded the way we do this, as anything else.  I'm quite tempted just to go back to turning up with a bivvie and kipping by the circuit for a couple of hours - I'm sure I enjoyed it more before I acquired all this stuff?  Our visitor from the States - Xander (goodduck) brought himself and a sleeping bag and hitched to Mulsanne for the night and had a great time.  Maybe we're making things too complicated for ouselves these days with our fridges, generators, gazebos,  and huge tents.  Maybe it's the simplicity of the old days which we really miss?

This year certainly was different.

The marked pitches in MB seemed to work, as they stopped small gaps between pitches (or fire breaks as they're usually called) but we found ourselves strung out, with a lot of wasted space, rather than the usual "circle".  There was even a spare pitch next to me.  We had a lot of grief from security, even the boss man himself.

There really should be electric hook up, if this place is supposed to be civilised.

A caravan and awning is about 35m²

We had a leather jacket stolen from a tent on Sunday night.  The ACO should make sure that security is "security" not "warders".

The smaller stalls are now complete rubbish, and the only t shirts etc worth buying are the teams official ones.  What went wrong?

The overall view was that it was pretty disgusting, at the price , and there will be several letters of complaint to the president

We (a group of friends and myself) have been going to Le Mans since 1994. As most people we always tried to keep a balance between watching the race and having a good time on the campsite (beer, BBQ, etc...).
The last few years we saw the number of "hooligans" increasing and generally the atmosphere deteriorating, so last year we decided to give it a miss and went to the Classic instead (which was brilliant). But we missed the real Le Mans and came back this year.
The behaviour of the "fans" at the Houx Annexe roundabout was disgusting (just glad I didn't take my freshly restored Triumph). Around 1am we went to the circuit to have a bite and a drink. Sitting in a tent (it was raining) an obviously drunk moron in a blue woman's dress (that's right) came over and started pushing me over, trying to pick a fight. I'm not a fighter so just left the tent, but he came after me, saying he didn't want to hurt me, but that was what was going to happen. Luckily one of his mates came after him and calmed him down.

Then, on the campsite, the badge on my friends 911 had been stolen, damaging the paintwork.

So, after 13 times, I surrender and won't be coming back :next year I will go back to the Classic.

Sadly this strikes a chord with me too. Have done Le Mans with a passion most years since 1989 but took a break between 2002 and 2004 (I was drying the tent out from 2001..). Having returned, the past few years have surprised me - the whole complexion of this event has changed. True enthusiasts now seem almost outnumbered by the pisshead fraternity who don't seem to give a toss about the racing nor those who attend for that reason. The owners clubs and variety of sports cars across the campsites seem to have been replaced by the 'Scooby Crew'. No offence guys, but some of your lot are really quite a disappointment. Motor racing as a sport has always remained free of the loutish behaviour found elsewhere. My experience this year suggests Le Mans has provided something of a platform and it would seem the long standing friendship with the good people of Le Mans may be spoiled by this. My car was vandalised on Friday night, as were several others in Bleu Nord (see my separate thread). Was this down to local thugs, or did the issue stem from our own ranks?
I heard of CS Gas being used elsewhere during the weekend - that isn't the Le Mans 24 Hours is it? I doubt any of these lager fuelled morons are reading this, but if you are; please just f*ck off to a football tournament somewhere and leave us and 'our' race alone.

Happily, martbass, I feel pretty confident in saying that you are right, none of them will be reading this.  Which is why I won't ever give up on LM.  A chance to meet and greet all the guys and gals of CA is one of the things which makes the week in June special.  I don't think we're out-numbered by the yob element at all, just less noticable.  We know how to get p*ssed and enjoy the race in equal measure without spoiling the week for others.
Luckily too, it's quite possible to watch the race undisturbed by this small noisy minority as they are not in the least bit interested by what's going on on the circuit.  I spent 28 hours watching the build-up and the action and didn't notice them once.

Having just read the earlier posts, I admit to being a little confused.  Did I go to the same race as everyone else?

Yes, the rain was a bit of an irritation at times, but it was forecast and I took and wore clothing suitable for the weather experiencd.

At HA, we camped in our usual space, with our usual neighbours.  The surrounding campers were generally well mannered and amusing, we sensibly and responsibly locked our valuables away when we were not about and, hence, nothing was stolen.

We visited the Stella Bar on Wednesday evening and drank our usual skinful of Leffe.  We ventured south to Ecommoy for Thursday lunch, and drove to St Saturnin and took part in the CA Cavalcade (an excellent afternoon) during Friday.

The usual spots were visited during the race, start / finish in grandstand, Esses / Tertre Rouge (with first class new viewing banking), Arnage / Mulsanne corners - all despite a 'touch' of rain.

Entertainment and socialising with others continued throughout the weekend (Stella Bar / Poo Bar / DfH / Bob U's Sunday fireworks etc) and were good natured and lively, again, despite some rain.

We avoided driving to obvious hot spots and instead planned our supermarket visits etc to avoid traffic and burnout areas.

In all, a different, but still enjoyable year.  We will be back for some more next year.

In closing, that wet stuff that falls from the sky is only hydrogen and oxygen.  When you get home and unpack your gear, it soon dries out.

I consider myself a newbie still with regards to attending LM (only been going since 1997) but within that short time I can recognise changes in the event, not just in the racing, but the organisation, facilities, traffic, camping, etc.

I think there is always going to be changes, some introduced by the ACO and other authorities and some a consequence of the behaviour by those that attend (not just the Brits, the Dutch, Danes and Germans are not so squeaky clean), and as individuals we need to decide if those changes are strong enough to keep us a way from the event.

I managed to avoid all the cr@p I don't like about current LM and still had a fantastic time. Even the weather made us laugh. To still get your enjoyment from the great event just takes a bit more effort these days. Find alternative routes to drive, other supermarkets, change your routine, etc and it is easy to avoid the nastiness.

Its good to have a moan, it helps us relieve the tension, but then once you have finished, stop and have a think and make an effort to not be a victim next time.

Some things are out of our hands, the ACO and organisation, etc., but getting caught up in the drunkenness, protecting yourself from theft, etc are all things we share a responsibility for.

Make the effort and you can still enjoy LM.

(apologies if this has turned into a ramble, but originally I wanted to moan, but then I thought about it on my drive home, and decided there was no need).

Well in my view the "Golden age" will never end  it will just evolve.


What we want is State of the Art Sports cars racing and lots of them.    But that costs Money lots of Money.  To be able to build the Car the Team has to get sponsors. You can't expect a Major Sponsor to pay out the cash just have his name on the side of the car.  They want the peripheral benefits to like access to the Paddock and Team.  The day when it was enthusiasts racing have gone.

It's a difficult choice.   The old Pits and Paddock were awful for the teams. So when they rebuilt it they put in the modern corporate stuff.  The old village was over crowded the new one is much better.

Over the last 27 years I've seen lots of changes.  I think there is next to nothing left of things that were there when I first went.  The place doesn't have the Character it used to have.  But the old stuff was very dilapidated and not really fit for the purpose.

The activities on Mad Friday change too.  One used to be able to drive the circuit.  From Tetra Rouge to Porsche Curves.  There was always a gathering on the Mulsanne Strait.  The Mulsanne gathering was stopped after a bit of a kerfuffle when some P155 head sprayed beer in an open top car so the young lady in the passenger seat got out and Lamped him.  I also there that someone was hurt in a motor accident there.  I think the road between Mulsanne and Arnage was closed after some people thought it would be fun to spray super soakers over one of the Police Men.

Le Mans is very special that's why it's the only race that some people go to. 

t.

The changes used to bother me.  I had a big flounce when they changed the catering and said I was never going again.  I missed one year and hated not being there so now that I am older and wiser I find my fun where I can and give the trash a miss.  I went to the Houx roundabout last year and I won't be going again.

Every year I find something new to do.  This year after previous dull attempts to drive in to town for the drivers' parade only to end up in the main square listening to the drunk hordes all evening I went in at lunchtime by bus, had something to eat in a small back street bar and several beers from roadside vendors, bus back to the circuit after the parade and then to the Stella Bar for dinner, more beers and a live band.  Great fun.

The Village felt better this year, though probably just more familiar and the poo-bar is still there.  I really will flounce if they take that away!

Biggest disappointment is the continuing decline of the funfair.  I walked all the way there from HA and really couldn't believe I'd bothered.  I won't be going again, though I suppose it is a lot closer to MB/Bleu where I imagine I will be next year.

Out of interest, on BSJ the toilets were cleaned by a team of cleaners who turned up in a van. Was this the same elsewhere?
Surely they can't be getting rid of the cleaner families.

On MB, we had the usual 'cleaner families' - residing in a camper (or caravan??) parked right next to the shower facility.  So no change for us!!

Del

No change on HA either.  Caroline and Thierry did a great job as usual.

My first visit to Le Mans was in 1969, the age of the GT40, so I think I can claim to be a seasoned veteran of sorts. The days of straw bales, no safety for the drivers and no facilities started to really change in the 1980's but the circuit has been so modified in the last 15 years as to be unrecognisable to anyone from that era. The new Tertre Rouge is, IMHO, a complete and utter farce as was proved by the Audi. With the changes they can lose it early and hit the new gravel trap or, and this is most likely, lose it on the apex and all that awaits them is the armco. Indianapolis is now much safer with the big gravel trap after the first part, but the second 90 degree left hand bend, where they are braking from 180mph, is still damned dangerous with a minimal gravel trap before the barrier - witness the second Audi that lost a wheel there.

The problem is really health and safety plus the drivers union and overall the great god money. We are no longer allowed to get close to the action in case we get hurt and sue - witness the horrific accident of 1955 with 83 spectators dead when Pierre Levegh's car exploded and the engine went through the crowd like a missile. The photo of a child decapitated still sitting on his father's shoulders still haunts me to this day. Imagine how much that would cost in damages today. Like F1 circuits (Monte Carlo springs to mind where in the old days cars went into the water) life has moved on and we have to move with it. In the 1950's with the full 2.5 mile Mulsanne straight cars hit 180mph, but in 1994 one car (a Peugeot 905) set an unofficial record of nearly 250mph. It was the manufacturers who asked for the chicanes so they didn't have to make a special bodywork just to bring to Le Mans.

Today, I reckon the cars could easily hit 300mph on the old Mulsanne, but in the event of a tyre blow out then death is sure and certain. Do we want that? I don't think so. So, safety has been improved and the circuit modified but as was seen this year the Porsche Curves are still very unforgiving and, as mentioned above, Tertre Rouge. Allso remember that the Peugeot hit 222mph between Mulsanne and Indianapolis in practice too.

Personally I long for the "old days" when we could get close to the action, but frankly it isn't feasable any more. Witness the horrific accident at Goodwood in the Festival of Speed when one marshal was killed and one lost a leg. Incidentally, I doubt that many of you know that there is a brass plaque in his honour at the post just after Arnage. It is on the inside of the armco where he used to marshal and it was his favourite of all marshal's posts anywhere.

I'm afraid we must nowadays understand that, as has always been known, motor racing is dangerous, and live with the changes. I remember at Daytona in 1992 when a Porsche lost its front spoiler on the entrance to pit straight and missed the wall and hit the chicken wire above resulting in one very big wreck. Imagine the catastrophe if there had been no fencing and just the wall? I could go on.

If though, there was one thing I would change it would be the spirit and attitude. Water pistols are fun, but filled with piss? Chavs and bling do not, to me at any rate, form part of the Le Man spirit. I hope you concur.

Well I was shocked to find the option of Chocolate had gone on the Grand Marnier Crepe stall!!! I will never go again- Bastards. Ended up doing our own, had about a half dozen and got to lick the bowl out afterwards-mmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Although I was saddened the hear that the Tetre Rouge section had been messed with (my favourite part) I headed up early on Sun morning and stood high up on the bit that juts out just after Chappell (the last grandstand I think) and the view is now unbeatable, you see all the way from Dunlop down to the top of Mulsanne through what is left of the trees. At night it looks magical. Had a happy hour up there and cannot wait to get back for the classic next year when it should look even better when the trees have had a chance to recover.

Well said, lynxd67.
But having visited Sebring this year, it makes me wonder why the fences are so high at low-risk points around circuits here in Europe. They almost only seem to be there to tease the spectators sometimes. I mean, why a barrier and two high fences at the Ford chicane at LM? More to keep us out, just in case some nutter climbs the fence, me thinks. The cars only do about 40 mph there :-\

Barb wire the top and put electricity on it, but don't spoil our view! >:(

Paddy, we've seen it all. Go back a hundred years and a suffragette sacrificed herself under the hooves of a horse for the cause. People have climbed towers, jumped off bridges, and yes climbed on to a race track for a bet when drunk, so nothing is new. In today's nanny state we must be protected from ourselves at all costs, all risk must be eliminated, and the world become grey. People are less protected against illness because they have never eaten slightly off food is another example so sell by dates are rigidly observed.

I've watch the chicken wire proliferate all round the circuit (the outside of Mulsanne used to be a great viewing point) but, if you use a telephoto lens the wire more or less disappears from the photo so it isn't that bad but you need the right equipment - a point and press can't cope.

But I am totally and utterly shocked that the Chocolate Grand Marnier crepes no longer exists! What is the world coming to?

PS It is, as usual this year, pissing down here at Le Mans.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

And an FIA ruling on the maximum length of straights. Glad I saw it before it changed though!

Coincidentally I saw the marshall guy who lost a leg this morning up in the finishing paddock at Goodwood. He was in a wheelchair in his marshalls uniform. I can report he seemed to be enjoying himself and quite a few of the drivers/riders made time for a chat, particularly Troy Bayliss the World Superbike rider. Bayliss also seemed very keen on the idea of riding the spaceframe JPS Norton Commando circa 1973.  :D

I know, actually his colleague (Steve) who lost his leg at Goodwood was there marshalling again just like he did last year.

Steve was marshalling at Le Mans this year. He was asked to move from his marshalling post during the race.
Heres a link fom 10/10ths
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97528&page=3

Blimey. Get away from work and he forums going expressive.

I thought the louts had lowered in numbers tis year, although we didnt do Houx RAb this year. we opted to change the scenery.

One of the lads in my group was a little expressive on the way down, and was spoken to about his behaviour, and could be clased as chav. But he moulded in with us soon after and was very good.

On the saturday night we too ( me ) were approached to engage in fist fighting due to some plonker being a little expressive with his fizzy lager fuelled belly. A few words of wisdom from myself and he decided the french lad enjoying himself was now ok.

There will always be idiots, amybe as a few get older and dont go out so much, you maybe miss whats going on in the world around you.

The atmosphere was strange. I couldnt hear anyone around me sing the national anthem ( although i was singing with brass and assisted by Kronebourg ) So..

Next year please sing louder, show off your tue patriotism.

Otherwise, Le Mans goes forward with time, just like the Mondeo is now a good car ( it used to have character ? ).

So...

Just one more gripe.

As we are all fans of the racing...

where's the post saying how good the racing was, and how great it was to see the barging on track ??

I was surprised that there hadn't been more comment about the changes at Tetre Rouge. This was also one of my favourite places to watch the race and one of the few places you could get close to cars and still get decent photo's by sticking your camera lens through the 2" x 2" wire mesh without needing a 400mm zoom. The new section now looks just like so many other corners on F1 circuits and of course the fans are now protected at a suitably safe distance. Give me the old section any day.