Club Arnage

The ALMS has been getting pretty exciting of late with all the little LMP2 cars mixing it with the supposedly faster Audis. I've heard it stated plenty of times though that Audis are quite heavily restricted by IMSA regs with respect to the ACO regs. Now, I know why IMSA are doing this and the massive crowds at their events kind of prooves their point but I don't really think it's a sensible way forward and as much as I dislike the Audi machine with all their mega bucks I do think their guys have a point when they complain about moving the goal posts. Also does anyone actually know the details of the regulations. How exactly are they holding the Audis back compared to how they will run at Le Mans?

As far as I know the Audis are not restricted or held back in the ALMS, so they will run the same spec at Le Mans. It's LMP2 class which is different compared to LMS and Le Mans. They have larger restrictors in the ALMS, so can catch up easier with the LMP1.

Also, the last two ALMS rounds were held at relatively curvy and slow circuits. This plays into the hands of the more agile LMP2s. Le Mans with it's long straights is a completely different matter.

Right, faster P2 cars rather than slower P1. It does make for exciting racing so I'm not complaining, just seems a bit unjust. The other strange thing is that in ALMS they seem to be able to make P2 cars that can actually run for a few hours without some major mechanical fault unlike the LMS!

Nothing strange about that from my point of view: It's the big wallets (Porsche, Honda) driving the ALMS compared to the likes of Courage, Pilbeam, Radical and so on in the LMS. And I guess Teams like Penske and Andretti-Green have also more money and staff compared to their european counterparts.

With due respect Dobbo, why is LMP2 cars being faster on some circuits than LMP1 cars unjust?  Simply put, Porsche and Acura (Honda) have built fast, outstanding racing cars capable of taking the fight to their bigger brothers.  Nothing strange at all about the speed and reliability of these machines, Penske Racing, Dyson Racing, Andretti-Green, Fernandez Racing, are all crack outfits, superb at preparation and testing.  Penske Racing are legendary for their attention to detail, as polished as any of the top F1 teams.
Fax

I kind of agree with Dobbo, Audi have stumped up and made a fomidable P1 car designed to the given rules. The R10 is streets ahead of anything else in the ALMs at present, notwithstanding the good job the small teams with other P1's are doing , they are going to be very pushed to beat the R10.

Then, just because 2 companys, (who lets face it, have the money to take the fight to Audi in P1, yet prefer to not too and stay away) can't win overall, they are given a power boost to enable them to challage the R10 and outclass the other P1 teams still futher.

If you follow that logic, then pretty soon we will see a GT2 Ferrari beat up a GT1 Corvette.

It will also discourage other teams who may consider entering P1 knowing they will have the lower class cars that are faster to beat.

But, heck what do I know and I expect when the teams arrive at the more open tracks they won't see the R10 for dust, quite what the ALMs do then the 'even' things up is anyones guess.

True John.
I remember the first year of the MG / Lola LMP2 cars at Le Mans.  During qualifying, they were consistently faster than a good deal of the lower LMP1 cars and, as far as I recall, were actually leading outright for a couple of laps of the race.

The MG/lola were not LMP2 cars, they were LMP 675 which was designed to be a different approach but still able to challenge for the overall alongside LMP 900 cars.

LMP2 cars by definition are supposed to be a separate class designed for privateers, not manufacturers and should not be capable of challenging for the overall.

IMSA have not enforced the ACO 5 % restrictor cut on LMP2 cars, much to Audi's annoyance.

And to be fair they have a good point.

Porsche and Acura have both waded into a class not designed for them. I hope they are just using it as a stepping stone to LMP1, then we could see a real battle Audi v Peugeot v Acura v Porsche. 2009 could be a very interesting year.

Porsche have always said the works LMP2 effort is just to showcase the car so that they can sell it to privateers - a way of keeping the name associated with sportcars without spending megabucks. Acura/Honda are a bit different; they're purely interested in the US market but they also might do Le Mans, which suggests a move up to LMP1 might not be out of the question.

I'd say the ALMS organisers have got things about right - its difficult to attract competitors into LMP1 because diesels have such an advantage at the moment under the regulations and its only big manufacturers who have the resources to exploit that advantage. So allowing LMP2 cars to compete for overall wins means Joe Public gets to see a RACE rather than an Audi benefit. Audi still wins in class and still gets the title.

Agree with Radar, this is a point that's been beaten on before.  The Porsche RS Spyder was commisioned by Porsche North America from the outset to be a "customer car" therefore a car for smaller privateer teams, I doubt when they were designing it they thought they had a Audi beater on their hands, just so happens that under the current IMSA regs, there are circuits where it can topple the silver turbo trucks.  As far as Honda goes I suspect much the same, that these are eventually going to be cars for privateer teams. Honda has done much the same thing Porsche did, initially put the car in the hands of a couple of serious, professional squads to sort the cars out before putting them in smaller teams hands.  It makes perfect sense, how many times in recent years have we seen customer cars from Reynard, Lola, or other racing car constructors being sold to teams, only to find out that the cars are complete sh*t-boxes, or in need of a huge amount of sorting and testing.  What Porsche and Honda are doing is selling racing cars that have already been de-bugged.
I suspect that if Porsche or Honda really wanted to mount huge factory efforts, they would go the LMP1 route.  From what I can tell, they're looking to sell racing cars and promote their brand.
Fax

Pure cowardice on the part of Honda and Porsche.  They didn't imagine for a moment that they'd have an Audi beater so went for LMP2 so they could at least boast that they were class winners. (So pushing people like Miracle Motorsports out of sports car racing was a triumph was it?).  Good for the ACO for keeping them away from the amateur classes in Europe.  When Patric Peter was asked at Ricard if the ALMS LMP2s would be allowed to compete at Interlagos in the autumn he said, "Yes, if they comply with our rules."

Of course, Fax, I hope that you are right and that Porsche sell more customer cars and concentrate on the side of the business which has been such a success in GT2 but I'm a cynic - why would they back off now? I also hope that with the upcoming introduction of the Acura brand to Europe that Honda upgrade the LMP2 to and LMP1 - I somehow think that there is a little more chance of that happening than of Porsche doing the same but I wouldn't give you odds on it.

If Porsche and Honda want to be sports car champions then they should go for it.  If they can't beat Audi at their own game then it's just tough.  Leave LMP2 the way it was intended to be - a chance for the little guy to take a class win.

Termie, just curious, how did they push Miracle Motorsports out of racing?
The little guy does stand a chance of winning, if he ponies up for a RS Spyder he stands a damn good chance of winning his class, and maybe pinching a overall as well.  I look at this from a racing fans perspective, when I show up a race meeting I want to see a race, not a foregone conclusion, restrict the LMP2 cars and you've got one damn boring two car race for overall honors.  When I go to Mid-Ohio in July I'll see a race where anyone of eight or ten cars are in with a shot at overall honors, and its been a damn long time since we've been able to say that, so I'm not complaining about the IMSA regs for a second.  As far I'm concerned, the more Porsche's and Acura's the better, beats the hell out of watching two silent Audi's drone around.
Fax

I have no argument with the concept that LMP1 in the US is just plain dull.  But how come Peugeot have the b*lls to play by the rules and Honda and Porsche don't?

Re Miracle : Mr & Mrs T had a long chat with Mr Miracle at LM.  They had been lobbying the governing body in the US to enforce the sames rules which apply to LMP2 in Europe. They were met with a big fat no.  Disheartened, they have given up.  I also read an article by Ray Mallock in which he stated that the rules as they stand in Europe allow small companies like his to have a go, whereas there is no way they can ever expect to have the budgets which Honda and Porsche enjoy.  My worry is that if the ACO relax the rules too much, then  RML, Bruichladich, Pierre Bruneau et al will just give up.  That would be sad.

In the last few years at LM, all the interest and real racing has taken place in LMP2 and GT2.  When one big manufacturer dominates it is lousy for the major classes, yes; but the "gentleman/amateur/what you will" teams keep the competition going in the lean years. 

If their budgets are unlimited, or close to it, then they should take it to the dominant team and compete on the same playing field, that is all.  The whole concept of LMP2 and GT2 in Europe is to encourage the little guy.  I hope that doesn't change because it will change the sport.

I remember this too.  After the race we bumped into Huge Chamberpot in a restaurant.  "What happened?" we ask innocently.  "The car's great but the engine's cr*p."

I disagree with you on this Termie.  Comparing Peugeot to Penske or Dyson Racing doesn't make sense to me.  Penske, Dyson, Andretti-Green, Fernandez, and Highcroft are racing teams, not major manufacturers.  The cars in LMP2 your unhappy with are built by a manufacturer, and campaigned by privateer teams (with support from the constructors).  Peugeot is building the car, and racing it...all two of them.  The IMSA LMP2 regs allow smaller, lesser funded teams (Dyson, Fernandez, Highcroft etc.) take on a big manufacturer like Audi and sometimes win.  I see no flaw in that.  As it is right now we have two teams, running two Porsche's each, and four teams running a total of four Acura's.  By my count, that's eight cars Porsche and Honda have added to the grid.  Last time I checked, Audi and Peugeot were going to race two cars each.
I'll take the eight Porsche's and Honda's.
Fax

Fax, do you know something I don't or can you not count !  ;D Last time i checked there were three Acura's (Highcroft, Fernandez and AGR)

Fax, look at the cost of a RS Spyder. This car doesn't fit into the LMP2 philisophy. It's rather a LMP1 car built to LMP2 specifications. To date there's been no Porsche LMP2 sold in Europe or Japan. And that's not because it's a lousy car but because LMP2 teams can't afford it. I agree with Debs, Porsche (and Honda) should play in the manufacturer pool, not in LMP2. Take a closer look at Penske. They are a Porsche 'works' team, period. They get massive support from Zuffenhausen. Just look at their driver line up. You'll find mostly ex Porsche GT2 works drivers. The same accounts for Honda, I guess. I agree with you about the 7 LMP2 cars against 4 LMP1s, though.

Good to have a nice old fashioned barny with you, Fax, about something important.

I cannot say that I blame IMSA for ignoring the ACO rule on this one, though.  Another year of single marque domination for the overall win could have had serious consequences.  At the end of '06 it would have been hard to believe the title of this thread!

However, if the RS Spyder or the the Acura make it to Europe, they will have to play by the rules.  The choice will have to be made : either they comply with the ACO's LMP2 regs which are designed to help ensure that they don't get the overall win unless the LMP1s fail to finish, or suffer major reliability problems; or they compete as LMP1s - which is perfectly possible.

Genuinely private teams - if such they are - understand and appreciate this philosophy, which is how Juan Barazzi, Ray Mallock, Bruichladdich et al have competed in Europe.  Victory for them is victory in LMP2.  What happens to them if Acura blaze in, in whatever guise, and hijack the class?  Whether in the Lowes Fernandez or Highcroft livery, the factory and a pot of money will not be far behind them.

I appreciate your point of view and accept that for ALMS to stay healthy (? 36 entries at the greatest race as opposed to over 70 competing for just 55 places at LM) IMSA could not do much else. However, we are looking forward to great battles in all four classes for the first time for years.  I can't help but think that the ACO must have got something right.

And yes, hgb, I can only count to 7 too. Did we miss something, Fax?

Point taken on the quality of the ALMS P2 teams Fax. I am sure that should the winner of this years ALMS P2 champ choose to come over to Le Mans in 2008 they would trounce the class opposition. I agree with Termietermite though in that it would not be desirable for that to happen and it does highlight the disparity between the two series. Despite the fact that Porsche and Acura would have developed their P2 cars restricted or not I would still like to see the two series run parallel, surely it could only encourage a better P1 championship in North America? To be honest I really wanted a better understanding of the regs, which I do now, so thanks guys!

Termietermite, thought I heard something a while back about a 5th RS Spyder to enter ALMS later in the year??

Why have different classes at all unless they are different classes , Remember how much the wrc teams complained when they were getting beaten in tarmac events by non wrc citroen's. Also when the GT1 car's got close to lmp2 the ACo stepped in to sort that out, and whether we agree that they have done enough to slow the diesels to keep the Petrol LMP1's in with a chance is a whole other debate but at least they have tried repeatedly to keep all classes competitive and as termie said they have 70+ cars clamouring every year to get onto the grid.
We all know if we let every car run unrestricted then the R10's would destroy everything on the track, If any professionally run team with plenty of money is given the hefty backing of the Porsche/Honda camps there going to dominate their class and that should be it, If mclaren were to enter LMP2 with a mercedes into ALMS we know they would be up their too. I hope the ALMS doesn't live to regret this though but all the better for us europeans as the audis and peugeot's might start racing head to head in the LMES.

Yes.  CET Racing Solaroli Motorsports were said to be running at least one by Lime Rock.  There also was, in the past, a suggestion that http://www.conzusmotorsports.com/ would run one too but as you see, their website is unhelpful.  But there has been no news for a couple of months now.

The situation is very similar to the Porsche effort in GTP in the 80's & 90's. Porsche ran the cars then sold them to private teams, there would be 8 to 10 entries in GTP class. Then BMW, Jaguar, and eventually Nissan and Toyota jumped in to the mix. It made for a lot of entries and a lot of competetion, which would be nice to see again. 

And Mercedes. And Mazda.

1982-1993 the glory years!

Morning all,
Yes, brain cramp on the car count, seven not eight.  What you've got remember is that IMSA is not the only sportscar game in town here in North America, they've got to compete against the Grand-Sham series.  The recent Audi domination and resulting poor prototype counts of the past few season's have hurt the series, especially when Grand-Am's car counts continue to grow.  You can argue till your blue in the face that having Porsche & Honda in the LMP2 ranks is hurting the privateers, but at the end of the day the series has to attract spectators, TV viewers, and sponsors to stay afloat. The series has now attracted Penske Racing, AGR, Fernandez to the ALMS with the existing LMP2 regs, giving it a much needed boost with those high profile names, and I'm pretty damn certain that IMSA is not going to do anything to piss them off.  Interest in the series has grown considerably since the intro of Porsche, and its boosted even more with the Honda program.  I've heard talk of possibly three existing GT2 Porsche competitors moving up to the LMP2 ranks with Spyders...and this is a bad thing?  There's plenty of room in LMP2 for privateers, yes its expensive, but by the very nature of the series its going to be expensive.  If you want to do sportscar racing on the cheap, the Grand-Am series is the way to go.
As far as the Porsche ever racing abroad, unless something changes it probably won't happen.  Once again, the car was commisioned by Porsche North America, for the ALMS and ALMS competitors, and its LMP2 regs.
Once again, I'll take a big, quality grid full of Porsche's and Honda's over
two Audi's and a handful of cobbled together Lola's and Pilbeam's, which is what we've had the past few years.
Fax

Things like the Mid-Ohio screwing they agreed to take, letting the idiotgrandson(TM) race his tantrum league on Sunday.

Agreed Chop, I guess that falls under the heading of a necessary evil.
One other point I'd like to make here is that I'm talking about the health of a season long racing series, not one race.  I couple of people (Termie, Enzo) keep referring to a 70+ car count at LeMans. That's like saying the IRL is healthy because the Indy 500 draws thirty-three cars and a bunch of fans.  Your talking about one unique race. LeMans is almost always going to have a big field, and high attendance, its a combination of teams from all over the world, many of which don't race in Europe the rest of the year.  When I checked the Monza results it didn't look like the grid was exactly crawling with a big, high profile prototype count either.  Two Pugs, a handful of Domes and Courage's and a bunch local one-offs is hardly the stuff of epics.
Fax