Club Arnage

Hey guys.

Like it has been mentioned before, the plan is to completely revamp the site and server from the ground up.  Some of the new features will include the return of Le Mans and other sports related news via blog by real reporters (including minute by minute Le Mans converge during the race), all new forums with tons of new features and spam control, and some sort of user controlled sub-sites for all of the clubs and groups we have here.  The idea is to grow this community.

The problem is a lot of that fancy software and server parts cost money.  We've been kind of idling along here on next to nothing (budget wise) for quite sometime, but to make this next step, we need some funds.  The best way, we figure, is to design and sell some wicked new gear for you in a real e-commerce section (with online ordering and payment).  As Del mentioned, we have considered some form of mild advertising to subsidise the efforts, but we will avoid that at all costs until it becomes a necessity.  Now I want to make I want to make in plainly clear:  In no time in the past or future will anyone draw a salary from Club Arnage.  These funds are strictly to cover the site costs.

I love the idea of a Club Arnage charity.  I think there is plenty of room for both.  Have you guys decided on one yet?  I can make an entire section on the new site for the "Official Club Arnage Charity"

I'd like to hear what you guys have to say on the subject:

What new site features would you guys like?
What sort of Club Arnage products would you like to see?  (My thoughts are screen printed t-shirt, embroidered polo, printed beer mug, flag and various stickers)
Would a pre-order system work for you?

All thoughts are welcome.

Thanks

OK Chaps (and chapesses) I'm possibly going to be a little controversial here!

I beleive there are two distinct subjects here, the costs of running the site and raising monies for charity.

There are many people who, over the years, contribute greatly to the forum. There are also several who appear once a year (if that) to purchase camping tickets.  There are of course many who also fit in between these categories! It is the stalwarts of the forum who are likely to buy a t-shirt and stickers. This means that the one off visitors who buy their tickets are in and gone with no commitment. So under the proposed set-up, the regulars support the one off visitors.

Surely this is the wrong way round????

Rather than have just the regulars contibute to the running costs, I would suggest that everyone who registers as a member should pay a nominal fee (say £1/£2 per year). That way, everybody who posts to the forum contributes toward the costs. If regulars/nebies want to purchase clothing/items then that is great as well and any "surplus" can go to charity!.

Chris, whilst I appreciate that to add new bells and whistle to the forum will cost money, I believe the forum has run just fine for the last couple of years as it is and don't see any need to change it. It would therefore be good to know the currnet burn rate and what is envisaged for the next year or two. It may well be that a couple of the forum members (and I know there are a few in the industry) might be able to pull together a deal.

As for merchandise, pretty much most of the things you mention have all been done over the last couple of years on a voluntary basis, and will hopefully be done again this year.

Not contrrversial as far as I am concerned JP.
Totally agree with you.

I have had some PM conversation with Del and Doris about this. Don't think it's up to me what happens to the money, so I'll go with whatever will be decided...

Hi Chris,

my personal opinion:

1. The forum should stay as it is. A little bit of advertising on the webpage itself (not the forum) is OK for me, someone has to pay for the server, the hosting fees and other maintenance costs. I'm not a fan of a member's registration fee, this would probably keep many newbies away, and like every forum also the CA-forum needs regular "fresh blood infusions".

2. As a new feature I would really like to have a wiki for the CA-guidebook part. For a first filling the contents of this years guide could be copied into it. People could work all year round on the guide - same as wikipedia - , updates would become visible immidiately, everyone could be an editor, thus leaving us only with the job of generating a print version once a year out of the wiki.

3. Up-to-date race info by the minute is nice to have but probably not so important, most of us will be trackside anyway, and those staying home will probably go for Motors TV.

4. Ordering t-shirts, stickers and mugs from a CA-Online shop would be OK for me, but there still should be a yearly discussion or poll about the new design, I love those threads, it shows that CA members are a creative bunch of people

Have a nice sunday

Cheers

Werner

Why do we not say that persons who have posted less then (say 250) post pays extra for Camping Passes/Tickets bought in the sell and swap section with the extra going towards the site.

I am happy to contribute money towards this site as I have gained a wealth of info from here in the past.

I don't like the idea of new members asked to pay a fee for entering this site

however, I can understand that this site needs funding for good stability and updated software.

better is to do it through selling merchandise and maybe collect some funds at the poobar (which I read somewhere in another thread)

I am happy with the way the site is run.

I understand what you are all saying as regards running costs.

What doing what"Friends Reunited "do!!.Any one can browse the site for free,but for instance if you want to post then you should pay a membership free to use the sites facilities.....that way it will force the one timers to pay for buying tickets and therefore help in paying for he running of the site and supporting the charity.

In my personal opinion,I would not mind paying £5 membership per year to use this really great site.

Wishy

I understand it as you mean the main site to upgrade and the forum's just been done with all the latest bells and whistles. I'd be quite happy to see a PayPal donations Welcome button. I'm sure you would generate enough to run the site. As for software, if your after a Content Managment System, try Joomla. Its free and works like a dream, plus I've got about 1300 templates you can have to play around with.

Hey guys,

First let me be a little more specific about some of the things I was suggesting:

Blog Style News:  This is meant to keep you guys up-to-date on sportscar related news on a daily basis, not just at the Le Mans during the race.  I envisioned it to be something like Gizmodo ( www.gizmodo.com ).  News for you, by you and with a section to post comments.  This could help drive more traffic to the site and give more topics for you guys to discuss.

New Forums: Mostly, this is to make things work better rather that flashy features.  This like automatic spam control, faster database, and a common user database shared with the blog and e-commerce system.

E-commerce System:  This is just to make things run a little easier.  It would make shopping and pre-ordering things easier for you (with credit card ordering and actual shipping costs) and easier for us (to get accurate counts of what we need to order).  The designs could still be voted on by members and even designed by members in contests.  Charities could still be involved in this as well with percentages of proceeds being posted on the site.

Wiki:  This is a fantastic idea.  I love it.

Advertising:  This may yet be an avenue we may look into, but we need much more traffic for this to be a reality. 

Payapal Donations:  I open to this, but in my experience, this alone cannot float a community of this size.  Besides, I'd rather give you something back for your money rather than just take it! :)

Paid registrations:  This is something I really want to avoid in any form.  This site has always been free, and shall remain that way if I have anything to do with it.  I think our opt in solutions like merchandise and donation events will work well enough.  I think changing to paid registration would push new people away and hurt the community as a whole.


Ultimately, it's up to you guys.  We do this for you.  I love the amount of participation you guys have going here!  Keep the suggestions coming.

Chris,

I can't comment on the the technical side because, whilst capable of using the end product (mostly), actually understanding how it all works is an area that is alien to me.  So, other than being grateful to those who do understand it all put it all together and maintain it, my comments are aimed at the more general issues:

1)  Thanks for the reassurance that this august assembly of disparate individuals will remain essentially free of business pressures.
2)   Blog style news sounds great - not totally up to speed with this - is posting on it restricted to registered users?  If not, presumably the only down side then is that news/comment could easily just become a bunch of drivel.
3)   New forums?   There's probably good grounds in some ways for separating out some subject areas, and it might avoid some of the thread creep/off topic stuff, but for a lot of people ( I think) one of the main joys of this site is just that - it happens and most people like it because it's just like having a chat about anything and everything in your favourite pub, and perhaps we don't want to change the character of that too much.
4)   Registration and participation should be free.  If people have to pay (even a nominal fee) to get on it in the first place, then many won't bother, particualrly when others remain free.  Morevoer, there is then an implied contract where a service is expected.  And you have to account for it, in case anyone asks you how much you're making and where the money goes.  Appreciate that you're after our thoughts. but from my perspective I would welcome a bit (not a lot!) more detail on how much cash/what kit you need to make it all work better, in non-tech speak
5)   Whilst neither advertising nor revenue generating, it might generate more traffic if some of the related websites, such as Aysedasi, Maison Blanche and Pistonheads could be persuaded to feature a CA logo/link more prominently than is the case at the moment on them, which in turn might generate the sort of traffic levels that then make some advertising viable.  Equally, the CA home page contains no links to anywhere related other than to Radio Le Mans and the ACO.  Once you go into the forums from the home page, you can't get back to the site home page.  Much more use could be made of the home page in my humble and non-expert opinion (can it be made so that you have to go through the home page to get to the forums?).  headlines for latest news, merchandise, links, etc 
6)  Charity fund raising is v. worthy and an advertised mark up on any merchandise  and a button-push donation facility is a good way to do it, plus the wider activities that some undertake and manage.  If is to be placed on a more formal footing, then it needs to be completely transparent about what is happening, who is running it, who decides where the money goes, how much is/has been raised etc.  And then published, perhaps via/on the home page so that the subject doesn't get submerged by the many other threads on the General Discussion forum.   That way everyone knows what people are giving their time, effort and money for and what is happening to it, and the people involved in doing it don't lay themselves open to criticism/risk.
7)  Merchandising carries the risk of having a bundle of non-moving stock sitting there tying up funds.  For my money, some straightforward stuff like stickers, coffee mugs, key rings pens etc would probably be the most manageable place to start before moving on to t-shirts.

That's about it I think - better get on with some work.  Hope there's a few nuggets/points to ponder in there for you

MG Mark

I'm in general agreement.

I believe that advertising needs a lot of click-through traffic to generate very little - unless people follow the links then nothing is earned. So I reckon that's a non runner.

Regarding the revenue/charity piece - I am not in any way anti-charity (having been an active fundraiser for various stuff for over 20 years!) However most people who come here are regulars - realistically, we get few new members who stay (maybe 1 per month, give or take...). There is a limit to how much you can expect your regular members to cough up, and it's worth seeing if the returns are worthwhile. I know the Masons do a lot of "hand in your own pocket charity" but most organisations focus on relieving people other than their own membership of cash. This is where the Guide could be a better earner than most other stuff - although even that is limited - if payments were introduced for downloads, less people would download, and more copying would happen.

You should also bear in mind that most of us who come here probably come direct to the forum and bypass the entire Club Arnage site, thus missing any advertising, news etc.

Lastly (for the moment anyway) there is a hard core of regulars which probably is less than 25 who are here year-round. I know we would all be prepared to cough up towards "admin" but if a general charge was imposed then I think a lot of passing traffic (and therefore potential members) woiuld be lost.

Oh, and as an aside, I would also like to see the forums more prominently promoted somehow. They are fantastic, but I bet a lot of people who find clubarnage never find the forum. They probably don't poke around a lot when they see that the content is somewhat out of date...  ::) :o

Well, first of all, to make some money on the internet, you need traffic. It all comes down to conversions from visitor to buyer and CA just doesn't have the traffic to make advertising or a webshop really interesting.

So how do you get traffic on a zero budget? CA could team up with other LM related sites who don't have a community behind it. Planetlemans.com does it like that. They simply use other forums they co-operate with in return for a simple banner and links on the homepage.

That way, both sites profit from each other's traffic without being competitors. I've got a CA section on my site already (http://www.unitedracefans.com/fangroup/Club%20Arnage/ (http://www.unitedracefans.com/fangroup/Club%20Arnage/)). We could take that a step further when we open our webshop and sell CA stuff on a commission basis. Not that I have brilliant traffic stats, but I've only started January 2nd.

Also, you might want to try social bookmarking like del.icio.us, StumbleUpon.com, Reddit or Digg.com. That works very well, especially with blogs. Those are systems built for automated personal recommendation.

But first of all, you might want to think it over first; CA is a non-commercial community which grows by (non automated) personal recommendation. Therefore the atmosphere is like it is, with people more or less thinking alike. Promoting the community to get money in, could have an effect on that community feel.

Would a penny a post be an idea? Payment to be voluntary then :-\

If the idea is to encourage new people, then subscriptions of any sort will have the opposite effect.  As far as paying to post is concerned - a) it will stop the chat, which would be a shame and b) it would  cost us money to keep other people up-to-date if we have insider info' etc.  From a personal point of view, it would make updating the calendar cost me money! - also a shame - wouldn't want to have to think twice about this.
I'm happy to pay a bit extra for t-shirts and to have a bit of CA merchandise available year-round, with profits going to help maintain the site. Sounds good to me.
The idea of charging a fee to sell tickets also sounds a possibility - this could be voluntary - I reckon a few people might pay more than a quid a time if it was left up to them.
What about the guide, Werner?  A voluntary contribution link for each download?

This was planned anyway, but the plan was to call for contributions to a charity

This is all getting horribly complicated, whatever.  Any moneys donated to the site in whatever form, might have a knock on effect on other charitable donations.    Is an extra couple of pounds on the costs of the t-shirts going to come anywhere near to the amount the site is going to need?  I guess that's what we need to know.

This forum is a community of racing fans with a common interest in the Le Mans 24 Hours. We exchange information and ideas and help each other out with tickets we don't need (at cost or as a swap). Some members, like Termietermite, Werner and Gilles before he moved to Dijon, do an enormous amount of work in  providing really useful information. The site provides the infrastructure which makes that exchange of information possible.
I really have no idea how the forum could be adapted to fund the forum, as any payment for registration, or posting would just be a discouragement. In fact, if you look at posting over the last couple of months there wouldn't be much of it if it had to be paid for- the meetings at Sebring and elsewhere would be arranged by email, pure information provided by Termie and others would have to be found on the ACO site or other forums, and the jokes and trivia would dry up.
I know that there's more to CA than the forum, but that's not somewhere I ever look, and I'm not at all sure that it can provide a service which a large volume of fans will pay for.
Merchandise can be tricky in that it involves holding stock which may or may not sell - me I'd pay not to wear a Le Mans Teeshirt or own a Le Mans mug of any description, but that's personal taste. As at last night Delboy had orders for 86 teeshirts and 9 mugs, how many would CA have to sell, and at what price, for a decent profit to result?
Charity is a separate issue, but lots of us have a charity budget for our favourite charity/ies, and then make impulse donations to charities which grab our attention through the year.

I have to say I'm broadly in agreement with KPY. I don't see a desparate need for change. I know the site and forum need paying for, maybe it could operate subsidised by a voluntary gift system. Not online, oh no, i mean a bucket going round on mad friday.

I have to admit I've not read every post in this thread.  But in general I think there is merit in most of the points.
IMVHO those of us that are regulars here wouldn't mind chipping in a few quid to oil the wheels.  The real cost at the moment is being covered by one or two people and that's not really fair.   Time is also being donated by folk like Smokie and Steve and I guess Djet.  The T-shirts, Stickers and Flags are organised by a volunteer.  Lots of people contributed to the CA Guide last year.

I like to add an idea to the pot.

Make Club Arnarge a real club with a membership fee.    Membership would not be compulsory. 

What would the benefits of membership be?

1) Club Members T-Shirts would have some words or Logo to indicate membership. 
        Non-members would only be able to obtain "Replica" T-shirts.  I think DfH do that.?

2) CA E-mail address. Like Your_Nick@clubarnage.com (I'd be happy to host and administer that.)
   The email would have web access and the normal IMAP and POP too.

3) There might be a way to indicate a person is a Member on the forum like the different stars the Moderators have.

4) It may be possible to have a "members only" area on the forum.

May be others can think of other items to add to the list.


Without knowing how much cash is needed to keep CA afloat it's difficult to know the best approach.  One can get a server for as little as £10 a month.  But the one I know of has a limit on the amount you transfer so that may not be realistic. But at that cost we only need 12 members paying a tenner.  Of course if we get 120 members it's only a quid.

Should we start a poll to see how many would be willing to be a member at various prices say £10, £5, £2 and £1?

t.

seconded... ;D