Club Arnage

Seeing the Spitfires and Concord in the Raymond Baxter tribute tonight, reminded me that these two great icons are possible the best looking machines ever created.
One like a Kestral and the other like a swan.
Which do you think is the most stunning?
To me the look of Concord on takeoff and the sound of the Spitfire both take my breath away, but Concord just edges it on sheer beauty.

Hmm, don't necessarily agree.  The Spit is lovely in every way, but the Concorde?  Always looked kind of gawky and odd.  As someone said after the Concord service ended, "it was a hell of an adventure, but a lot of people paid a big price for that program".
The Spitfire was beauty born of necessity, the Concord?
Fax

In what way?

I love the Concorde by the way - we have one here at Manchester airport, a thing of beauty in the eye of this beholder.

F

Concorde is/was indeed a beuatiful piece of machinery, particularly when cruising at altitude - nose up and sleek - unlike its slightly awkward appearance on take-off/landing (sorry Gary).  BUT the Spitfire has to judge edge it - small but perfectly formed and what a sound!

Both are pretty much up there at the top of my Hall of Fame for different reasons:

The Spitfire - designed to fight, and fought well, but still looks gorgeous from every angle.  And the sound of a Merlin or Griffon on full chat is just so smooooooth on the ear.

Concorde - not as pretty or as smooth to the ear, but a feat of technology at the time and even when it retired, and it looks supremely fast, even just standing there on its awkward looking, spindly undercarriage.   And the sound of four Olympus engines in reheat was awesome.

MG Mark

As a kid, I had the good fortune to fly from London to Washington on Concorde (or the SST) as the American airport announcer called it.
It was a absolute masterpiece of engineering in my opinion; as was the Spitfire in its day I guess.
The feeling you got inside the Concorde as it accelerated down the runway and into the air, with the fuselage twisting and bending was absolutely incredible. I know most people are aware it was only 4 seats wide, plus the aisle, it was actualy incredibly cramped.
I still have a photo of myself as a grinning teenager, posing next to the Machmeter, as it hit 2.00.

For looks though, the Spitfire just takes it.

Difficult choice, as they are from different era's of aviation development and both at the cutting edge from their respective designers.

The Spitfire, Mitchell BTW thought it was a terrible name, didn't have a straight edge anywhere on it, was difficult to build  and really started performing when Stanley Hooker at Rolls Royce got to work on the Merlin turbocharger.  Beautiful looks and sounds and I've yet to meet anyone who flew it that didn't enjoy the aircraft.  So could be a candidate.

The Concorde, the only viable SST commercial aircraft to be built and operated, equal to getting a man on the moon, and finished off by the French when they refused to release the aircraft's design authority.  Used occasionally by the military for high level supersonic intercepts. I can remember the first commercial flight from LHR, not a car or person moved, the whole area was at a standstill for the takeoff.  Can't imagine another aircraft having that affect on us lot? Beautiful, beautiful looks, sadly missed and maybe never renewed.

My vote would go with the Spitfire, probably the Mk IIa, still very clean looking, retaining much of Mitchell's original lines and before it was given the steroids in later marks.

Forgive my ignorance... SST? Super-sonic something or other I guess, but what?

Sorry Bill!,  you know what it's like with us young upstarts, SST, Supersonic Transport, I believe it was an American abbreviation, poor yanks, had a couple of goes trying to build one themselves, gave it up as a bad job took their ball home and forbade us ever to darken their doorstep ever again with the machine, except for Washington.  Oh yes, they also insisted that the the first class fare should have a 20% hike in it as well, just to kill the aircraft off completely.

I've added a poll although from your replies so far, it looks like a clear winner is emerging.

Talking of aircraft Peter, has your stealth bomber been Smoked or did you remove it ? ???
If it was our beloved moderator who spotted the wing message he should apply for a job in the Iraqi air defence ;D

I prefer the Concorde to the Spitfire for looks, in fact I always thought that the Focke Wolfe 190 was better looking than the Spitfire.

Bob, I don't know what has happened to the bottom panel, no contact from management, but there again you don't expect the niceties from the squigglies, do you.  Its the same with PM's you write them till you're blue in the face and do you get a reply, NOPE.

BTW, I've got some more!!  he he

Peter,

Both your avatar picture and your stealth bomber picture are now just little red crosses for me.  I assume your upload server is having a bad day.

There has been NO moderator intervention on my part, that is merely a result of a vivid imagination  ;D


Oh, I'm rather partial to the P-51D Mustang.

(http://www.actionart.ca/images/HurryHomeHoney1.jpg)

Steve,
The question was Spitfire or Concord, NOT Johnny come lately interloper, but I must admit that's it up their along with the P38 Lightning
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning_USAF.JPG)

Ahh, a moderator has surfaced ;)  you're right its the server.  can we take it that this thread has now evolved?  I shan't use the term fallen to thread creep or degenerated etc.

Is it open season on pretty aircraft?

My all time choice/fav is the de Havilland, arhhh, Hornet.  Prettiest aircraft EVER to grace our skies.  What a shame none are left, all gone to the scrappy in the skies.

Yes the P51, is a good example of how us brits came to the rescue again and turned a mediocre aircraft into a brilliant one.

Spitfire v Concorde?

Spitfire. All rounded with short stumpy undercarriage. It could be likened to Dawn French or Cathy Berke.

Concorde. Angular and lithe with long undercarriage, a bit like Claudia Schiffer or Heidi Klum.

Think of that well known Spitfire pilot Lenny Henry. Do you think for one minute that when he is flying in his Spitfire he is not wishing he was flying Concorde?

End of discussion I'd say.

Splleing, Kathy Burke, Mr Bob ;)

I was talking about a different Cathy Berke. Lives near me, you don't know her ;D

I guess that goes for the other chicks as well, does it :D

Dawn French, Claudia Schiffer and Heidi Klum, what about Henny Lenry?

Bob, isn't that the woman who's married to Michael, the BBC news reader?

No, she married this fellow.

Peter,

          I think it must be.  The hornet was a lovely aircraft indeed.  Cue....aaahhh de Havilland, the home of many a pretty aircraft, like the Comet.

MG Mark

Great question.

Only one choice for me Spitfire, it appeals to all the senses, visual, sound (we have one fly over our house quite often, it is guaranteed to get everyone out into the garden) and touch. I will explain the latter. There was and probably still is a Spitfire hanging in London’s Science museum. It was positioned in such a way that by reaching out a little from the gantry you could touch the tip of the aircraft. I remember taking my very young sons to see it and after I touched it (an instinctive reaction) my eldest son asked if he could too, so I lifted him up and of course my youngest then wanted to do the same. Afterwards we sat and ate our sandwiches in view of the plane. I can say without fear of contradiction that everyone that approached the exhibit did exactly the same thing. The Spitfire is a great deal more than just a machine.

I know I am a sentimental old tw+t, but there you go
 ;D

Interesting you mention the Spitfire in the Science museum, i believe it was taken off the front line during the BoB, and at a later date positioned.  It has never been cleaned up or renovated, so is a time capsule from the 1940's.  Does anyone know if it is still there?  or has it been moved?

I lived quite close to HP Radlett and still remember the early test flying of the Victor, in those days it had a metallic fuselage and silver wings, very futuristic.  During GW1, the Americans thought the victor tankers were our new secret weapon, they looked a bit awe struck when it was pointed out that at that stage the type was nearly 50 years old.

Very difficult to chose, as has been said, both very emotive, both things of sensual beauty, both landmark achievements of their era which will never be surpassed. I am unashamed to sit on the fence and not be able to choose between either. Yes, there are other beautiful aeroplanes but none so iconic.

What about the ugly ducklings.  My vote goes to the Harrier, and we sold it to the USMC

Like you I was around that area, when my parents lived in welwyn, with both of them working at De Havilland.   The americans were always awestuck by out old stuff - the Victor still looks "flash gordon" futuristic even now, and i will never forget 2 F-14 drivers being completely dumbstruck at Lossiemouth as they were overtaken in the climb out by 2 Lightnings at around 35k having been given a 30-second start on rolling......

The Spitfire is, I think still there in the Science Museum and they also had a second one in a dissaembled state for the 65th BofB celebrations.

MG Mark

funny old world, when the F 15 Eagle first came over to the UK they were always spouting off about its 1:1 thrust to weight ratio and how marvellous it was, I think it was at RAF Mildenhall, just prior to the Farnborough Air Show and the USAF/McDonnell Douglas team were getting in a right old lather about its unique properties, a relation of mine started chatting about his time with 56 Sqn and how they had be doing all that for the best part of 25 years with the Lightning.

The Lossiemouth one was an epic in watching American jaws drop on the flight line, which was near the runway threshold.  It had arisen as a challenge from the night before in the bar, when the F-14 drivers had been taking the p*ss out of the leaky old Lightnings sat on the pan next to them during a major exercise.  The Lightning guys (from 11 Sqn I think) did not rise to the bait, but just suggested a "last to 60k buys the beers" the following morning.  The older American hands there, who knew what would happen, played along and "encouraged" their youngsters.   Of course, the crowd on the pan the next morning was of epic propoprtions.  The Lightning guys egged it on by suggesting that they "wouldn't want to get in the way of the F-14s", so would give them a 30-second start......cue the F-14s taking off and departing in a reasonably spectacular fashion, followed the the Lightnings winding up on the brakes engaging reheat and rolling - as they did so, rotated and went vertically up, the assembled younger Americans  jaws just hit the deck.   You know the picture and sound.   The radio call as the Lightnings passed the F-14s at 35k was "byeeee.....", although in true Lightning fashion, it was followed a few miutes after levelling out at 60k or thereabouts, with the throttles back to idle and a call of "fuel priority to land" ;D

Another picture attached - because it's nice and it's of a glorious aircraft - from the days when we did because we could - the famous 22-ship Hunter loop. ;D ;D ;D

MG Mark

Concorde, because we could do it and no one else managed to.

However I was once on the flightdeck of Concorde after the FO had given us a very condescending lecture about how they were always to be treated as a priority, never sent to the hold etc. He said

'And, as you can see, the cockpit is a little cramped'

I replied

'Yes, it's a wonder you and the captain can get your heads in at the same time'

However, there will always be a place in my heart for one of these

(http://www.damir.co.uk/images/aviation/duxford-2001/dragon-rapide.jpg)

Nik that looks like Duxford?

Just a note to say I'm really enjoying this thread.

My vote went for the Spitfire, purely because if it hadn't existed it is very unlikely that Concorde would have.

Both awesome machines.

Fran,
I can't say for certain but I think the bloke was referring to the cost of developing and maintaining it relative to the numbers built.  They always say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and of course national pride invariably creeps in.
As a said, I've always found the Spitfire lovely, the Concorde a bit awkward looking especially with the nose drooped.  But what the hell, I find the A-10 Warthog pretty and most aviation buffs will say it has a face only a mother could love.  I'm with Steve, the Mustang (and Spider it was a fine airplane as designed, just needed a lump with more grunt than the original unit.  The British Rolls filled the role nicely).
Of contemporary aircraft, the F-16 Falcon is as pretty as they come.
Fax

Ahh - thanks for the explanation Fax - usually when people refer to paying a big price for something they mean they died for it.... and I was under the impression that other than the one accident in Paris (I think) there were no fatal crashes - hence my confusion!   :-\

For civil aircraft I love the old Comets and VC10 - my dad used to fly them for BOAC and I have happy memories of going to pick him up at Heathrow with my mum after his long trips away and looking up as we were driving there trying to find which one he was flying... ahh bless!    I used to be a dab hand at plane spotting when I was a kid.

F

Urban myth, true or not, but I was once told that mile for mile, the London underground is more expensive to travel on that Concord was.
Makes you think!

Quite so, the same had been said about the Lymington to Yarmouth ferry, at the time 20 squid return to go less than eight miles!

Fax Mk II - Hurrah! Welcome back!

1) The costs of Concorde went through multiple sets of smoke and mirrors, from the original development costs, to the transfer of the aircraft and spares to British Airways, privatisation etc etc - suffice to say the tax payer underwrote bucket loads over the life of it.  But it was worth it.

2) A10 - pretty, maybe in a blind mother's eye, but what a gun!

3) A fine aircraft as designed, except for the engine - but then redesigned to take a decent engine..... ;)..... designed by the brits....... (cheap shot but irresistible!)

4) Yes - never forget seeing an F-16 square loop on take off, within around 2-3000ft height, when the first one visited Bruggen in the early 80's.  A 30 degree per second+ turn rate.   Nose authority in spades.  Awesome.  Particularly at that time, when we had...hmmm...the Jaguar and Buccaneer.    And we are just getting Eurofighter/Typhoon.

Mind you, sad to see the F-14 is now in retirement.   

MG Mark

Well I have been busy or I'd have been here ages ago.  (Things you have to do for club members some times!)

I voted for the Spitfire 'cos I grew up knowing my dad loved the ones he worked on.

Howeever the Concorde will always have a special place here too.

I'm very much a de Havilland fan too, at the Turweston fly in a couple of weeks ago there were three beautiful Chipmunks, two in the old time 1960s Silver/Yellow striped Training Command colours that made my heart stop for a second. Took me back to 1962 and my first ATC camp and  "303 chip air exp 25m" I can still recall the first smell of flying helmet and mask even now.

So for God's sake don't open up the vote, please.

Not me, I haven't been around. Steve is probably right.

MG, big thanks and yes, agree with you on all points.
Also agreed, sad to see the Tomcat retired, BUT! Talk about expensive to maintain?!
I think I read somewhere when the news came down that the F-14 was being taken out of servce that it was six times more expensive to operate and maintain than the F-18 Hornet, nuff said.  It was a lovely, big, fast bird but designed to fight a enemy that no longer exist.
But Wow!  The sound of those two big GE's on full afterburn....Still makes the hair on the back of my  neck stand up.
Fax

Fax - agreed lots of ooomph and, at the time, lots funky toys with the Phoenix.   And of course it had the cachet of being the featured in Top Gun.   Proof below that beauty of sorts can sometimes be seen even in an F-15, just with a very well-taken photograph, shared freely on another forum by someone who enjoys climbing Welsh hillsides and photography, with the talent to be in the right place at the right time in the right weather with the right equipment.   The only thing missing is the sound........

MG Mark   

and a second one just for good measure.....

with the photo this time.......

you must stop nicking the threads from pprune ;)

Both awesome planes and only 31 years apart. A few (lot of) years ago both a Spitfire and Hurricane were flying at the bottom of my street due to Sunderland Air Show. What a fantastic sight and beautiful noise. Hard decision but the Spitfire just wins.
Watched the Red Arrows at the bottom of the street when the North Run was on. As always, jaw dropping. Did their display and then disappeared out over the North Sea. Next day when I was out on the boat, I got a formation fly past when they were returning to base. I'm sure one or two tipped their wing ;D

Like your lovely F-4 piccy through the hangars?  ;)

you should post the close up with the crew WSO taking a photo.  BTW the spelling mistake has been driving me crasy so its corrected now

This one perchance?  ;D ;D ;D

Thanks Ferrari Spider
And thanks also to whoever added the "e" to Spitfire.

no this one silly ;)

anyone interested in seeing more of these shots have a look here, truly awesome and look out for the posters, I'm sure that will happen.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247911