Club Arnage

There is a press release issued by Spyker that they are in neotiations to buy Midland F1 - if true where would this leave the le mans effort?

Here it is

http://www.spykercars.com/?pag=50&jaar=&nid=195

Not a lot apart from rumours so far

In the dustbin, with any luck.

I ceased being a fan of Spyker when they came out with that utterly ghastly 4X4 last year.  What a blatant cash-in on the SUV market - $$ Kerrr-ching! How to destroy your core brand values and integrity in one easy lesson. And even to contemplate F1 is an abomination....

It makes sense to so. The F1 project won't be financed from current Spyker funds, I presume. But both road and track cars will benefit from F1 expertise and wind tunnel. Marketingwise it'll provide them a bigger audience worldwide and more credibility among prospects who value F1. Beside that, costs are decreasing and income is increasing for the teams in F1.

And the SUV is utterly ugly of course, but so is the Porsche Cayenne and they did pretty good selling it anyway.

I guess trolling around at the back of the grid with a couple of rent-a-drivers being lapped 3 times while sucking up to the great and the good is better value, than racing a car that is based on one that is available for sale and being competitive against Porsche and ferrari in GT2 a class that performs in at least 3 series around the world including two of the greatest races, Sebring and Le Mans.

Still what do you expect from someone who created Big Brother.

Words cannot adequately describe what I think about that particular abomination on wheels. It proved to me, along with the fact that Porsche have not themselves created a racing car of note for over ten years, that the current management care only about money and nothing for their integrity or adding to their considerable heritage. And the styling is even more laughable than the Spyker and that must take some doing. Morphing a 911 into an SUV and pretending it's based on a late '80s Paris Dakar raid car is nearly as risible as the deluded fools who pay top dollar for it. God I hate it so.

The misguided leading the incompetent.

I feel that Spykers sportscar forays are laudible, though eccentric. Bit like a Dutch Morgan. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, of course, but I feel that the Spyker sports car (not seen an SUV version) looks like something a schoolboy designed.
Porsche Cayenne is a sell-out, per Zarse's comments. VW Toureg half the price - half the derisive laughter

Actually, Spyker aren't that far of their roots with the SUV. In 1903 they built the first car with permanent 4WD. They were first to install a six cylinder as well, but that's a different matter. ;)

The Spyker as a road car is impressive......but the most notable thing about the Spyker last weekend ....call me an anorak if you like....is the flames out of the exhaust on overrun going into the old hairpin .....awesome.....a real car!!!!!!!


Wishy

Small correction, that's another Mol. This Mol runs Lost Boys, the other one does television. But they both have a lot of money.
We have a third 'famous' Mol, who tends to bore Dutch F1-viewers to sleep with his commentary :-\

That's stretching it a bit, isn't it, Pieter? I thought the only thing that Spyker cars shared with the original Spyker company was the right to use the name. Is that not so?

You don't need a boring commentator to fall asleep watching F1 !!

Del

Hmm yeah, I see your point ::)

Perhaps there's Egg Foo money in this, he may have finally found a way to buy his way back into F1 ;D
They may be tryng to sell Spykers in China, Malaysia, Bahrain, etc.  After all there are not going to many Euro venues left, I see Imola and the mini-Ring have been dumped for next season.
Fax

Different MOL! John de Mol, not Michel Mol.

Did not see Paddy comment before posting, so a bit redundant. Spijker are probably not putting to much money in to the project, since they have none and are expected to not make a profit in the near future selling their cars. Also if sharerholders don't agree, their will be no involvement at all. As far as exposure of the brand goes, F1 is the better strategic move since it is viewed by millions of people, only a few million race fans follow the lemans series, alms and Le Mans itself, note the difference I make between people and race fans!

Will just have to wait and see what happens!

Spyker would do well to read the Nielsen report on the audience for ALMS (see the ALMS website) which suggests that the audience for endurance racing is one of the richest in all sports - I doubt wheter F1 can say the same.  If racing's about marketing their road-going cars then they should stick where they are.  The audience may be bigger but is it the right audience?  I guess they've done their homework but I suspect it's just another case of giant egos at the top of the company wanting to be involved in the "glamour" of F1.  Puke.

Well, Spyker is all about glamour isn't it? And brand awareness is very important to sell more cars. Also, being in F1 doesn't mean backing out of endurance racing. ;)

Let's hope not but tell that to BMW.

And Mercedes, Ferrari, Toyota, Renault, McLaren, Sauber, Jaguar, TWR/Arrows etc etc

Not so sure about McLaren, difficult one that, but you forgot Lotus and Aston Martin, and probably Penske.

What a waste

Ta, guys.  As a marketing professional in the days when I "worked" for a living, I was constantly frustrated by the inablility of senior members of the companies I worked for being unable to distinguish the true quality of the audience as opposed to their own perception.  Take a look at the car park at Le Mans and do the same at a Grand Prix and you'll see who the sports car buyers are and who has all the money (the factual Nielsen report notwithstanding.)  F1 is dumbed-down motor racing these days and true sports car enthusiasts know it (see this site for loads of evidence, should anybody on here need it).  Let's hope those at Spyker see the light before it's too late.  Zarse, I agree the 4x4 is an aboration but I'd still be sorry to see this galant team leave endurance racing as they undoubtedly will have to if they persist in this purchase.  Running at the back of an F1 grid is a great way to drain a company's finances.  Who really looks at an unsuccessful F1 team and thinks "I really must go out and buy one of their road-going cars"?

Point well made.  This is all confusing, as everytime a Ferrari wins, I don't think that I must go out and buy one of those.  An Alfa perhaps  hmmm.  And nothing would make me drink Red Bull.

I just can't see what Spyker have to gain, other than a trip to the Official Receiver.  Mind you, the Dutch do deserve their own F1 team

The reach of F1 has little to do with people who attend the races, that's only a small part. F1 has the advantage of being televised worldwide on an open net and is being watched by people from all walks of life and therefore also by those who can afford a Spyker.

And although the percentage may be lower than at endurance racing, cumulative figures will probably exceed them by far. Endurance racing just doesn't offer enough reach to build brand awareness.

Sorry Pieter but niche brands need niche audiences.  Blanket coverage is fine for fmcgs (fast-moving consumer goods) and large-scale-production companies but it's just overkill for a company in Spyker's section of the market and a huge waste of money.  The audience may be huge but that's the point, it's just big and comes with an astronomical price-tag which BMW and Toyota et al may be able to sustain but I would doubt if Spyker will be able to. It is not properly targeted.  Corvette sales in Europe have rocketed since their LM successes and Aston are undoubtedly beginning to find the same.  These companies are not dumb!  In Corvettes case the roadgoing version of their car is not great but their targetting of their audience has been absolutely spot-on.  Sorry to go on about this but I really hate the idea of them disappearing down the F1 drain.  It didn't take Midland long (but it undoubtedly took quite a few quids) to see the light, did it?
Meanwhile, you really should take a look at this.http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=2455

Ferrari is also a niche brand who uses F1 for both marketing and technical development purposes. They do ok, don't they?

Yeah, but they have put years into building up their brand as an F1 force and this is why they can persuade companies like Marlborough to provide the kind of finance needed to employ the best in the business to run the F1 team for them.  They are the Man U of cars in that everybody has heard of them even if they will never buy a car.  But they will buy a packet of fags.
Spyker cannot hope to have this sort of effect on the market.  Their name may get better known but it won't translate into sales for years, if ever, and certainly not at the rate they can expect from judicious niche marketing.  F1 is littered with the bodies of companies/individuals who have tried this route simply because they are brainwashed by the idea of the numbers of people who watch F1 worldwide and (I suspect) the dream of rubbing shoulders with the "glamourous" types who inhabit the pit lane.
But only time will tell should Spyker continue down this road.  I hope I'm wrong but my experience, both professionally, and in watching the history of minor F1 teams in recent times, tells me otherwise.

So what's your opinion on doing both endurance and F1 (which I suspect they will do)? Marketingwise I'd invest in ALMS and Le Mans, rather than LMS. F1 depends on what their objectives are and how they will finance the project.

Termie, I think you really hit it on the screws when you said F1 has become dumbed down motor racing. From my experience being at GP's today vs twenty five years ago the F1 fan now could largely care less about the cars and technology of the sport (which is also being dumbed down) its all about cheering for your boy Schumacher, or Alonso or Massa, or Button, etc.  In many ways it has become very similar to NASCAR.  Its marketed to a crowd which for the most part has little interest in the technical qualities of the sport but love the my favorite driver vs yours appeal.  Twenty years ago F1 and sportscar racing fans were one & the same.  Not now, most of the sporstcar racing fans I know find F1 a joke, while the F1 fans I'm familiar mostly just want to wave the flag for their boy (again, very NASCAR-ish), and couldn't care less about sportscar racing.
Great, if Spyker wants to go the F1 route more power to them.  But I think in the eyes of many it will actually lessen the appeal the brand.
Fax

Erm, I'd beg to differ on this point. What's not great about it then?
Do bear in mind that the standard cooking C6 ZO6 has a LOT of cross-over technology (including the LS7 engine) from the C5R, which utterly dominated GT1 throughout it's career. Even a straight-off-the-showroom-floor Corvette is a very  very nice piece of equipment that will blow holes in anything remotely close to it's price-point. Track success sells great cars - doesn't really work if the cars aren't great - or insanely priced. Spykers involvement in Sportscar racing has brought attention to the otherwise unknown quirk brand. I can't think they've sold many cars based upon their racing success, simply because they haven't had any. 

Actually, Matt, personally I love them and do covert one!  Those looks, that noise, the pricetag.  But I know many people on the forum "poo-poo" American muscle cars and no doubt Mr Zarse for one would engage in a lively slanging match (sorry, debate) on this subject.  But I suspect that this is a bit of heart ruling head in my case as I feel sure that a more refined "European" (ha-ha) sports car would be more pleasurable to drive and to own in the long term.  Sadly, I will never have the budget to test this theory out for myself so it's only an opinion and is likely to remain so (sob).
But what you say does reinforce the point - development on the track in sportscar racing does have a direct benefit to the road going versions of cars - GTs in particular (which is why they are of much more interest to me than those cheesy jobs in the LMP categories) and potential owners do identify directly with the cars they see racing.
If Spyker manage to find the budget to run F! and endurance racing good for them, but where will all this money come from?  Maybe the bid is just an attempt to get a bit more publicity for the brand and they'll withdraw it?  Let's hope so.

Well, Lost Boys is involved, McGregor will probably do some sponsorship (same owner as Spyker, Victor Muller) and perhaps a big Dutch company is interested. Victor Muller knows his way around in the world of finance; he got the Arabs to invest in Spyker anyway.

Quite the opposite, the Vette C6 is a fine car, the ZO6 even more so and bang for buck it's a terrific proposition nd it's acceptable to be lenient on the quality of some of the the fixtures and fittings (except for the transverse leaf spring rear suspension, although to be fair its changed to carbon fibre so it's now a hi-tech 16th century idea!).

No, it's that filthy Dodge STR Viper thing I hate with a passion. Have a look at the Top Gear Power laps, it's quite illuminating:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps.shtml

This so-called "supercar" get's it's ass whooped by a bloody Porsche Gayman ferchistsakes. If only it did what it said on the tin, unless of course the tin says "All mouth and no trousers". I don't suppose the Spyker wears trousers.

At risk of opening this all up again, when it was pretty well hammered flat - Andrew Zarse's reference (codswallop that it is) would suggest - and presumably the eponymous Mr Zee agrees, since he brought this up, that the Viper SRT-10 is therefore a finer car than:

Porsche 911 Turbo and Carrera S
BMW Z8 and M3
Aston Martin DB7 GT and Vanquish
Benzo CL65 and AMG SL55
Ferrari 575
Audi S4

Now, let's compare price tags again, shall we? How much is a SL55 or a 911T - it's just slipped my mind

Andrew, have a word with yourself, old bean. Yet again, I call bollox on ya!

The only cars on that list that I wouldn't want before a Viper are:-

BMW Z8 (I don't want to look like a hairdresser)
BMW M3 (Just buy the M5 and get a really good car!)

So my order from the list would be:-

Aston Martin Vanquish
Aston Martin DB7 GT
Benzo SL55
Benzo CL65
Ferrari 575
Porsche 911 Turbo
Porsche Carrera S
Audi S4
VIPER SRT-10

Will never buy though:-

BMW M3
BMW Z8

Matt, a cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Anyway, I guess this is all a bit subjective, but here's my opinion on the cars you mention :

911 turbo - totally baffled by that one, as indeed by the Vanquish which probably conked out half way round.

Carrera S - it says was done in very wet conditions, so knock 10% off it's wet lap time and it becomes very competitive.

M3 is a glorified German Cortina and costs about two thirds as much as the SRT. Having said that, the M3CSL beats the Viper by 0.5sec and it's a just standard M3 with a bit of weight removed, which probably points to the standard car being a bit too fat and refined for the track (great road weapon though). Unlike a TVR, a Dodge (just marvel at the magic in that name) or any other crappy jerry-built plastic vehicles, it wont roast your right leg on the transmission tunnel, drop to pieces, set fire to itself etc etc etc.

Z8 and DB7 are old men's cars for wafting around, not proper GTs, Benz's likewise but to a lesser extent.

575 is pretty old fashioned, it's now been replaced and I would like to know what the new one would clock the curcuit in.

Audi S4, really a road going estate car and I would venture to suggest on real roads it would show a clean pair of heals to most of the other vehicles on the TG board, certainly the hopeless SRT wouldn't see which way it went.

Most of the car's prices you mention are in the area of the SRT, so can't really understand your point. Ok so an SL55 AMG is more. So what, the SRT et al get's destroyed by the cheaper Ariel Atom, Exige S, TVR Sagaris and other cheaper cars? So your point is what, precisely?

Finally, in our last debate, where we unanimously decided that the Dodgey was the pinnacle of motoring excellence, you expressed incredulity that the product methods of the Daimler Chrysler empire had anything in common with the way TVRs are screwed together. On reflection, I would I would ask whether the build quality and fit and finish of the Dodgey has anything in common with a Merc SL? It's still the biggest waste of £65,000 known to man.

I love our little chats.

As do we all. ;D

Rick, I largely agree with you except the DB7 is well out of date (XJS bits, you see). I would swap the M3 (a very fine driving machine with a slight "tosser" image) with the SRT which I would not cross the road to urinate upon if, sorry I mean when, it catches fire.

Yes andy I sort of agree but I really don't want to look like tosser in the M3 and the Viper SRT-10's need major mods to make them road legal here as they make way too much noise. There are very few SRT-10's in the UK so I would rather be and individual fool then a tosser.

Plus I doubt very much I will ever get to own all the cars above the SRT-10, so I will never be in the position to buy one!

BTW, a DB7 was a supercar when I was at Primary School so one of those cars I would that I will always look back on, they are still also very rare.

 Anyway, I guess this is all a bit subjective, but here's my opinion on the cars you mention :

Hang on a second, Andy - this lot was your point of reference, not mine. In fairness, it was you who drew our attention to this supposedly authoritive league table. All I have done is highlight some bloody nice cars that rank lower in YOUR reference than the Viper - so I'd say my point is quite clear.
By your logic, the SRT-10 is a more accomplished car than a Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG - and a Porsche 911 Turbo - your list , not mine.

I think the price comparison may be slighly irrelevant - and I only have access to US pricing, without getting all anal about it and searching UK sites, which I frankly can't be arsed to do.

Finally, love 'em or loathe 'em (and I do neither) the Viper is hand built by Chrysler SRT division - it's not a Benzo, granted - but it ain't a Stratus or a Charger either.

Let it lie.

A minor adjuct to all this.... it's Labor Day weekend here in the land of the free (or is it brave?) I just got back from the boozer - the venerable Fish on Fire, on Lonesome Corner (known to a couple of last year's Sebringwallers).
Well there's this dude who drinks there, kinda regular like, who looks the spit of Richard Petty, who goes by the name of Turbo. Now, Turbo's a regular Florida cracker type - likes Jimmy Buffet, got a big coon hound named Daphne and who's regular ride is a Ford F350, all jacked-up to hell like a monster truck.
He's been telling me for months that he's got a '70 Challenger in the shop, that he blowed the motor all to smitherines and has been working on since before Pontius was a pilot. I have always nodded politely, figuring he was full of it.
Well tonight he showed up at the FoF in that ol' Dodge.
It has been my good fortune to own/drive a fair selection of American muscle in my time, so when he offered me a spin (initially shotgun, but then at the helm) I figured I'd got it all figured out.
Uh, huh. No way Jose. Not never , no how.
This old bruiser flattened my eyeballs. I didn't drive it, I hung on for dear life and cried like a schoolgirl.
383ci stroker - Crane roller-rocker/Moroso long-tubes/Holley Dominator, 3500 high-stall, Dana spool - the forking works. They don't make 'em like thi Mopar Monster anymore (well, untill 2007 anyway).
The graphic on the trunk deck said it all - "Does not play well with others".
Viper - Schmiper, those Cuda's n' challengers are and were the sh*t.
I want one.

Hmm, should'a seen what Dan Gurney and his boys at AAR did with Barracuda's.  Made for a couple of bad-ass fish in the Pony Car Wars (Trans-Am).  Gurney and Swede Savage peddled them with a skilled & deft touch.
Fax

If only I knew what all this meant, it's like a foreign language to me, I just can't fathom it; first it's a load of seeming nonsense about rock and rolling cranes and a dominatrix called Holly. Next we're onto the Pony Club Wars and a savage swede. Christ sake, I thought we were talking about cars here? Oh and I've had morose long tubes for several month and I can't see they're anything to get that exited about.

Anyway I've just got back from Goodwood, hob nobbing with some of the all time greats and generally having a nice time. In previous years it's never ceased to amuse me to watch well peddled Cooper S's and Lotus Cortinas hanging onto the skirt tales of the likes of Stingray's and 'Stangs and heaven knows what other 'abreviated V8 muscle cars, all this on one of the quickest power curcuits in the world. Some of those cars really do have far too high an opinion of they're own abilities don't they? I think the owners should give some serious consideration to fitting a steering wheel, it might help them go round corners a little faster, that and not making the body shell out papier mache, I reckon it would be a real help.

Anyway, Matt, I too had the pleasure of pilotting a wonderful american V8 car yesterday. It's possibly the finest AC Cobra replica currently in the UK (Steve Brown to confirm? it's the definitive car Nigel Dean built last year) It belongs to a good pal who wanted to see it down there but decided to take his Vanquish too and asked me to drive it down to the curcuit for him.  It packs a smallish block 357cu 350bhp stroking thing (before you hit the NOS switch which ups the game to about 600bhp) and it's also got a big aluminium scoopy air intake thingy shaped a bit like an upturned NHS bedpan, and which normally sits atop a dragster's supercharger. I'm sure it's got some trendy name but no idea what. Well the damn thing was so fast in a straight line it sucked the wallet clean out of my tweed jacket! Fortunately it was returned intact. Stuck in traffic the car was an utter abomination, I'd no idea such a torquy motor would have that much trouble in shifting 3/4 ton aluminium at 10mph. But out on the highway it was peerlessly fast and I had terrific fun in it, although the suspension was so rock hard on real UK roads and I don't think it would be much different to an SRT. My squeeze for the day also burnt her bare leg on the exhaust but fortunately being a bit tipsy she laughed it off. What a hoot!

Here it is: (http://www.daxcars.co.uk/images/kitcar_mag_oct05b.jpg)

What's that on the cover?

Win a Dax Cobra worth £1,000???????

Have a read of the whole article Rick, goes on for about ten pages. I like the NOS moment. Jesus H Christ at Bonneville, you better hang onto your hat!

http://www.daxcars.co.uk/tojeriobuild/part1.htm

The Dodge has a singular and sole purpose in life: to go down the road as fast as possible. The other cars mainly have other purposes/compromises, i.e. to comfortably waft four people around Europe, have room for a dog in the back, etc etc. To my mind the Viper fails comprehensively in the one thing it sets out to acheive.

As for "Let it lie"... see Matt's contiguous post.

No Andy I am at work so will read it when/if I get home. The comment was just about the front cover.

I can't think that four people and a dog wafting around Europe in a 911 Turbo would be very serene, but maybe I'm deluded.
The Dodge recorded a better lap than the 911 TT, yet is still considered a comprehensive failure, in Mr Zarse's mind. Go figure that one out...
I'm trying to put this one to bed - as usual I think it's plain to see that your argument is once again, poorly made, ill-conceived and full of holes - but you will insist on yet more feeble retort.
A quick review will demonstrate that all of the 'data' has been supplied by you, not me - I merely used it to crush your hysterical ranting. Don't worry about it Andy, I don't think any less of you, just because you can't debate worth a sh*t. Some people can do it, others can't - get over it.
Right, I'm off to replace the guttering on the back of my house. Toodle pip!

Cars you wouldn't buy... I note from dailysportscar that there will be a "Duller BMW Z4 coupe" at the Britcar 24.  Hmm.

MMM, Britcar looking forward to it!

Just hoping that work doesn't throw another spanner in the works by asking me to work this weekend as well!

Any yank supercar is great value IF we get it at the US price. Once its arrived here, it becomes expensive and there are better cars for the money for european roads.

And thats a sensible reply after a night of beer,
English beer thats is, not american lager stuff.