Club Arnage

Worth a look. Not sure if the crash at the end is staged though.

http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1853.htm

I'm not surprised it crashed.  Apart from this being a spectacularly bad piece of driving, the Viper (or SRT10 or whatever it's called these days) is one of the biggest loads of crap ever to turn a wheel.  Ill handling and spongy,  it has all the grip and roadholding of Torville and Dean skating on a Teflon coated ice rink.  It sums up everything I hate about this sort of car.  It is nothing but a badly built lashed-up heap of rubbish which flatters the recent efforts of TVR and moves contemporary car design forward not one single inch. Personally, I'm glad there is one less Viper in the world, although I hope the idiot driving it is ok but has learned his lesson.

Nice to see a measured, un-biased and thoughtful Zarsian critique for a change.
You are talking out of your stench-trench Andrew.
The current SRT-10 is smaller, lighter, more powerful and better equipped and constructed than it's predecessor. It also sells better today than it ever has done historically. It's racing record (particularly in North America) is to be admired and it is not usual for an ill handling, spongey and grip-less car to dominate a production based series. Whilst not everyone's cup of tea, the Viper SRT-10 does not deserve your hate-filled rantings. I call bollox on ya.

I see Mclaren are working on a carbon fibre version - with improved handling and drivability - should be an interesting concept.

I've driven a 97 GTS and found it horrifying in the handling department, thrilling in the torque and subsequent "at any point you press the gas pedal" acceleration department, and very rough in the comfort department.  It also needed to come with a telescope to see beyond the end of the hood.

Other than that it was T I T s!

Have you driven a new Viper Andy?

I'm amazed they didn't have an accident earlier, they were on the wrong side of the road for almost the whole video!
I'd quite like one though. It'd be nice to paint it black and call it Edward.
H

(What sort of line was he aiming for on that corner?)

It worked! ;) What a wonderful Pavlovian reaction Matt, you showed all the blind faith and slavish devotion I expected when presented with a little fair criticism of a vehicle (any vehicle?) made in the USA. I'm not really sure how you can be so excoriating about the products of Blackpool or Hethel yet worship at the foot of such a piece of utter tat, a car which fails in so many similar ways to a contemporary TVR. So I'm calling bollox back at ya!

Oh, and don't quote the racing verions here, IIRC the LM cars ditched the hopelessly massive lorry engine installed in the road car (60bhp per liter - WOW - my lawn mower has a better bhp/ltr ratio!) and installed something a bit lighter and smaller which also allowed them to move the weight back nearer the back axle. The lorry engine is what ruins the handling on the road car. The rest of the car is a chuck-together embarrassment, even worse than a TVR. The dash and controls are stricly for those with a fetish for shiny brittle plastic and the dials would be considered low rent even if they were installed in a KIA Serato or a Daewoo Kalos (Daewoo's are called Chevrolets in the UK now, which kinda says summat, but that's for another day). At least TVR makes it's own switchgear and engine by hand.

Yes I understand the new one is better (it couldn't be any worse could it?) but can someone please explain what's so clever about strapping a massive engine into a rubbish chassis and charging US$115,000 for it. They are truely having a girraffe  :( :D and jolly good luck to them.

Curses! Foiled again by Zarse's devilish cunning.
I'd feel admonished where it not for the fact that your response is so filled with inaccuracy, speculation and plain ignorance.
Firstly, I should state plainly that I am not a huge fan of the SRT-10 - though that is not to say it isn't a good (by good, I mean good value performance package) car. Save it with the old 'truck engine' lark. OK, so the original car used a casting that was originally for an iron diesel block - so what? The current all alloy motor produces more torque than any other vaguely accessible supercar.
I don't know what IIRC means - but please note that I was not referring to Le Mans spec Vipers, but to SCCA specifications (i.e. production based - so no space-frame etc) where they are dominant. Even the LM Oreca cars were competitive (and popular) back in the 90's at Le Mans - winning class 2 years on the bounce, so you're going to have to eat crow on that one, baldy.
I agree that the original car's interior was a cluster-f*ck and the new one isn't a whole lot better in the dash layout dept - but it cannot be descried as thrown together. It may well all come un-glued with time, as TVR's do, but not having owned one, it would be a little unreasonable to just guess that build quality is going to be suspect.
For the record, the SRT-10 engine is hand assembled (as is the rest of the car) and retails slightly less than $90,000 (to stay price par with the ZO6) Today $90k represents 50,000 pounds.
I confess that I am fond of some American cars. I think that the C5 and C6 Corvette are both very satisfactory for the money they cost. I also like the Pontiac GTO (Holden Monaro?) - the SRT-8 versions of the Charger and Chrysler 300 and the latest Saleen Mustang. That's all - nothing particularly unusual in that, is there? 

IIRC = If I recall correctly.

I love our little chats mate!

In amongst all the glorious personal abuse, there are some glaring errors and omissions. Thus I comment as follows:


Not a fan? You coulda fool me! Value performance package?? I'm choking! A Lotus Exige is a value performance package but this thing? Never! Nor is it a supercar by any definition that I understand the word; it's just a low slung Dodge RAM SRT10.

Is it not the same engine as from the SUV and which originally came out of a lorry? Anyway, it doesn't really matter, it's big enough to be a truck or tractor engine and surely that's the point. To be fair Matt, I was really talking about the older cars, versions 1 and 2. Anyway here's what EVO had to say about the latest SRT, I think EVO are generally considered a very fair mag. http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/52255/dodge_srt10.html


If I remember correctly, IIRC means if I remember corectly.

The LM cars had a different engine, as I originally said,  so you're gonna have to nosh on some rook fricassee, tubby. (Sorry, rook's off.)

As you'll note above, the UK price is £77,500 which using your exchange rate is actually $140,000, and I think you'll agree that's quite a lot of money for a big bag of sh**te.

Oh and FWIW, I do like the CO6 but can't for the life of me understand why the Dodge is $50,000 more. For that money you could almost buy a ZO6 AND get a C6 with the change.

Finally, I note you still haven't answered my point about how this car and it's circumstances differ in any way from TVRs. Being a northern chap and having a passing resemblance to the Rt Hon John Prescott, I wonder if perhaps you two are related? Certainly you're being as closed-minded as him and his denials of wrong-doing over this mucky Texas businessman/big
casino business.

(http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/05/svPRESCOTT_narrowweb__300x457,0.jpg)

Your debating technique is as flawed as your knowledge-base.
Simply re-stating your errors doesn't suddenly make them correct.
I'm unsure how many more times I have to state this, but, just in case there is any doubt whatsoever, I'm not a big fan of the SRT-10 and never have been. Please stop telling me what I like and don't like.
I think the EVO article pretty much told it like it is. Unless I misunderstood the author, he suggests that the car isn't appropriate for the UK environment - not that it is a poor car... or did I get it wrong again? I'm not sure I ever stated that I felt that the Viper was a good choice for British roads.
The 98 and 99 Oreca Vipers had an 8.1L V10 production based motor.
My apologies re UK pricing - check www.dodge.com/viper/htm for retail pricing. I cannot think where such a car could be acquired in UK - and be supported by a warranty that was worth a carrot.
Whatever gave you the impression that an SRT-10 was $50k MORE than a ZO6? Are you crazy? They're priced within a couple of hunderd bucks of each other - and while we're on the subjective subject of comparison between the Vette and Viper, what is it that you like about the ZO6 that you can't stand about the SRT-10 - both are designed to do the same job, albeit in a slightly different way - and pretty much do.
Finally - are you seriously suggesting that there are ANY parallels between Daimler Chrysler Corp and TVR - and the way they build cars - and subsequently market them? You strike me as an intelligent, though frequently irrational man - you simply cannot be serious.
Regarding Two-Jags, or whatever he's called these days, people say I look a little more like Brad Pitt than John Prescott - I did admire the way he slotted that guy who egged him a couple of years ago, but in every other sense, he's a crook, just like the rest of 'em. Never, ever, ever trust anyone from Humberside, that's been my mantra and it's not let me down so far.   

I love this thread.  ;D

Well I thought I might try the Horsham Car Centre. They're the local Dodge dealership and it's only a mile and a half down the road from my office. I'm pretty sure they offer a manuf's warranty too. http://www.dodge.co.uk/dodge/vehicle.aspx?ID=769,22

Dodge seem to have reduced the UK price down to £69,990 which still equates to $126,000. I only quoted US dollars so you didn't have to do the maths. Sorry for the confusion, but I reckon $126,000 is despartely expensive for this sort of car. It should really be priced in TVR territory. To sum up,  it's an over-powered, poorly handling, piece of plastic crap with no build quality. And I bet the hood leaks too. Call me irrational if you will, but logically, I cannot see it's really any different to TVR except that it's more expensive and for your £70k you get white dials like off a moped. (http://www.dodge.co.uk/dodge/photographic/22-1-large.jpg)

No doubt HGB! Hopefully this will distract people from some of my Warsteiner fueled belligerence ;D
To borrow a line from the PGA adverts over here...These guys are GOOD!
Fax

Ah, now we're getting to the nub of it. It's clearly the price that offends you so. Not much to be done about price-gouging, profiteering (sinful bahavior, this 'making a profit' caper) European distributors.
The SRT-10 costs $85,745.00 - ecquivilant to GBP46,580.29 new pence. About the price of a well speced 5 Series Bimmer.
Of course, the real kicker is that you don't get paid in dollars - and I don't get paid in pounds. However, if we accept that a dollar goes as far here as a quid does in UK - a Viper is cheaper in Horley than it is in Punxatawney - so I don't know what you're whinging about.
I must say that pasting a photograph into your posting makes your washed-up argument SO much more convincing - as does your choosing to simply gloss-over the parts where you know you're dead-in-the-water.
.....and the bugger accused me of behaving like a politician!

Hey Andy I take it your not a fan of the Viper then lol??? but you have to admit they sound the mutts nuts dont they ;D ;D ;D

Cheers Fax, lets have another beer - don't stop guys!

What a pack of crap. Your defence of this car is pure New Labour spin (an apt expression with the Viper). And I think it's unfair to liken me to a politician, mainly because I'm telling the truth; ie. the car is expensive rubbish. Oh, and your grasp of economics is about as tenuous as the Viper's grip to the road.

I suggest you study the video again, I did. I noticed, just like a TVR, it's not got ABS. Maybe I was originally being a bit harsh on the driver; look at that baby plough straight on. I dare say you'll come up with some excuse like it was dragged over the edge by an invisible tow rope or perhaps Wile E Cyote was standing just out of shot with a comedy ACME magnet or something equally implausible. But don't you think it's more likely to be the ton of ballast (aka the engine) sitting on the front wheels? I mean, it's not even going that quickly is it? A well driven Ford Fiesta would have skinned it alive.

Whilst having my ten minutes of meditation this morning I was skimming through this month's CAR mag, specifically the Goog Bad and the Ugly summary in the back. Their verdict on the SRT10 was quite amusing (Alternatives: Merc SL, Aston DB9, or Penis enlargement surgery)  and the Pub Fact was the last one they tested caught fire (just like a TVR!) but I thought you'd like to know it was one of only a handful of cars to get a mere one * star out of a possible five.

Great fun, this.

Why did I never think of that as a reasoned, well formulated and persuasive argument? It's so much more compelling than actually stating your case Andy and providing a mere shread of logic - I must use this strategy more often.
I also notice that your bi-polar argument shifts from one subject to the next, as each of your hysterical tirades is blocked by facts. We have now shifted from the relative merits (or short-comings) of the car to the lack of skill of a penis-wrinkle of a driver. You can hardly argue that a car is crap because some plonker drives it off the road.
Similarly, you have made more groundless, ignorant statements - this time concerning the cars weight distribution and centre of mass - here's a thought - check the facts before launching into yet another bile-filled attack.
As for Car magazine's "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly", I remember it being amusingly written, but so biased (everything that came out of Modena  was praised, come what may) as to be a mere tongue-in-cheek postscript. I think their sum-up of the Aston Martin Vantage was, "as flash as a rat, with a gold tooth". Go figure....     

Wonderful thread, Andy, Matt, please keep going ;D ;D

Anyone else think this thread could go to penalties?

Just remember there aint no substitute for pure grunt !!!

Pure class Matt! He's on the ropes....

Nah, I'm anticipating a counter-punch from the slippery bastard at any moment....

may I just say ive longed for a Viper since I first saw one in LM 1994.AZ i think you are being very harse on its handling characteristics,you are comparing it to the Commer's which was and still is one of the finest handling vehicles ever built by great British engineers
PM

Now you're really taking the piss  ;D

Nah, he's gone to the classic.

I started this thread and now I can just sit back and enjoy it ;D

Any chance of continuing it via text and post the replies here ;D

That's a quote from the mid-eighties mate, an absolute GBU classic quip. I've got some back issues of CAR in the loft so I could check, but my money says it belongs to either the Nissan/Datsun 300Z (a truly ghastly car compared to it's wonderful prediecessors) or more likely, and I'm guessing here, to an American car? I'm pretty certain it wasn't accredited to an Aston, even though they were quite cutting about the limitations of Newport Pagnall's finest.

GBU had some great comments over the years, they said of the MGBGT (circa 1979) - Oh death, where is thy sting? - and the Triumph Dolomite - The grave beckons.

CAR mag to my mind has the best considered opinions out there and a wonderful heritage to which the modern mag aspires. Writers of the calibre of George Bishop and Steve Cropley fired my latent enthusiasm for cars as a kid. The brain-on-legs LJK Setright taught me about clever engineering and lateral thinking in this context, which quite frankly is probably why I so dislike "brawn over brain" cars. I agree Matt, years ago I was always a bit baffled by their love of unreliable Modenese products, but have found that on most other cars I've ever driven, from Alfa thru Volvo, their reviews have usually been pretty much bang on the money regardless of where the vehicle is built. Their destruction of the Rover 800 at launch will linger a long time in the memory, as will calling the 92 Golf GTI a lemon. They're "off" Subarus Imprezas at the moment, considering them a bit stuck in the nineties (they've got a point!) So when they tell me the SRT10's a (very fast) load of old tat, I for one am inclined to believe them.

We'll never agree on this, so do you thinkwe should probably leave the matter here mate? Been fun though.

OK Dave, screw this, I'm getting myself sent off.

Zinedine Zarsedan nuts Mattharperazzi


(http://imagesocket.com/images/zidane29b.gif)

I'd kind of run out of things to say on the subject too.
Car magazine was a little strong on the money, when I was younger, so I resorted to reading it in the dentists waiting room. I liked GBU section - they just didn't change it frequently enough. "Death, where is thy sting?" was a personal favorite of mine also. LJK Setright was a complete mystery to me - waffling on about Aeriel Square Fours and Desmodromic valve systems in a car mag, and what was it with that f*cking moustache? He seemed wedged quite far up his own expansion chamber for my liking.
I think Mark Hales wrote for Car for a while - he seemed to know what he was on about. His piece on the 959 changed my thinking entirely about what a true 'supercar' should be. 
Co-incidentally, a black SRT-10 just drove past my office window. The guy behind the wheel looked about a hundred years old and the tart next to him looked like a dead-heat in a Zeppelin race. Perhaps that sums things up nicely 

Come on you two - don't wuss out on us all now.

Zarse - Matt said your mom's a terrorist - nutt  him!!!

Erm, that makes your mom a terrorist too Dave - why don't you have a go, if you think yer 'ard enough.
Give Zarse a break - he clearly knows when he's been bested and I don't think it right to kick a man when he's down. I have to admit to being mildly surprised by his total and utter capitulation - but then again, he clearly had a tough weekend at the races and perhaps needs a little time to regroup, so to speak.
His revelation concerning his dotage to the pretentious pseudo-engineer LJK Setright does explain quite a lot of his nonsensical drivel, it must be said.

Matt,

Good to see you live by that adage about being 'Magnanimous in victory"...   ;)

Regards,
 Martin

Declaration of Unilateral Surrender:

Dear Matt,

I hope you are well. I hereby officially concede that a TVR, being a badly-built, plastic panelled, over-priced, noisy, cramped, unreliable, brainless, front engined/RWD penis extension of a car with no ABS, no ride quality and having far more power than the chassis can adequately handle is in no way similar to a Dodge Viper, which by comparision is a paragon of all that is virtuous, modern, efficient and good value for money (apart from them white dials off that Chinese moped).

Naturally I grovel in humiliation.

Signed,

A Zarse

Hello Martin, magnanimous? I try to be - I was goaded by my younger brother - and figured I might just score a knee-jerk rise out of Andrew and square things away - as per the beginning of this thread, when I took his bait without inspecting it first.
True to form, he clearly has more class - pax.

And so, as this thread draws to a close, and our two exhausted warriors make the weary trudge back to their camps, I'd like to take a moment to thank the little people behind the scenes who, together, make such an event possible.

BobU: for his foresight and guidance in laying the groundwork
Steve Brown: for his early stirring of the pot
Ian: for his valiant attempt to change the subject after the first salvos
Jay: for his sensitivity when there seemed to be an underdog
H: well, for being H
Hgb: for sprinkling just the right amount of gasoline on the smoldering embers
Fax: for his unadulterated love of James Hunt
Chris: for sensing the general community turning on Zarse and jumping on that
Werner: for trying to be fair
Ricardo: for sensing the kill
Powermite for starting the hammering of the nails into the lid
Robspot: for giving those nails an extra thump
Rhino: for valiant efforts in technology support in an effort to prolong the agony
Megabuck: for observing one of the quaint characteristics of a Yorkshireman


RIP Thread

.... and Harper Junior, for stirring the pot big time  ;D

There has to be a few glowing embers left of this thread that can be wafted back to life. Matt - put another log on and get those bellows pumping!

Hi Rich - no, I think we've hammered it about flat. Anyway, Andy has more serious matters to attend to right now. I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of opportunities for more vigorous debate between Old Baldy and me in the fullness of time.

Funny f*cker

Agreed, this thread is out of air, as we say in Germany (this means it's done for good). It was great fun to read. Great performance by all involved, especially the two protagonists. I salute you.  ;D