Club Arnage

This is a thing of beauty.
Fax
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=222148

You old curmudgeon, John  ;)

That's me Steve, Grumpy Fax ;D
But really, I do love going to the event.  The Harper family group and the CA'ers I've met over the years are some of the best people I've ever known and every second spent with them is great fun.  But as for the race itself?  Gotta tell ya, they've lost me quite a bit.  The circuit is just a point & squirt, chicane & gravel trapped mess, and as I mentioned on another thread, the whole place seems to have lost any sense of charm or history about it.  You watch it on TV and you can barely see any spectators. Hope everyone had a great time...and dammit! Pick up your garbage! ;D
(How the hell are you supposed to keep a place with 200,000 spectators clean? Ought to see the Indianapolis Motor Speedway after a race? Talk about a disaster area!)
Fax

Reads like uninformed rubbish to me, but hell what do I know - I was there.  ;)

Hey Grumpy, gota tell you that the viewing perspective up by the Dunlop bridge both looking towards it and looking towards the Esses was fanstistic at night (didnt go in daylight so ?) yes its a fair distance but my eyes arnt that knackerd, think about it, if your on top of the track the less viweing area angle you'll have. You really need to view it for yourself.
BE THERE NEXT YEAR. 

Even if the race is poor, the friends you make are there, and keep you all sane, clean, fed ans watered.

When the rest of the car world comes to the table for a fight, it'll be a good one.

Rhino & KPY,
I was there just a couple of years ago, trust me I've seen it, looking uphill, downhill and every way in between.  The viewing is sh*t, maybe your just used to it and accept it, I expect better for my hard earned income.
Fax

Guy's, I mean that in the nicest possible way too.  Would be great to meet you guys and share a beer and discuss this in person, but nothing, and I mean nothing you can say to me will change my opinion on this subject, the viewing at Le Mans sucks!  I've spent hours trudging around that place looking for a decent vantage point and have yet to find one.  I take that back, in 1998 I found a little hillside on the inside of the esses looking straight back up the hill to the Dunlop Bridge, thought that was SUCH an evocative view.  Thats gone now, replaced by more gravel.
Fax

I know the spot well with a few trees around for shade and watching the cars go thru the esses coming down from the Dunlop Bridge.  At 3:45 on Saturday afternoon, my heart was pounding out of my chest from the excitement of being somewhere where I never thought I would ever be able to go.  I went there in '04 after walking miles to find a suitable viewing spot for the start of the race.  I did not have a grandstand seat then so walking the track is all I could do.  ...and you are right in that it is very hard to find a place to take decent pictures.  But thankfully, Le Mans is much more and does provide a awesome adventure like none other.  I do like Sebring and Road Atlanta for viewing and picture taking and I understand Leguna Seca is outstanding.  I want to go there sometime.

John,
You hit it on the screws, Le Mans is more than just a motor race, its the experience taken as a whole. And I enjoy it enormously.  And when I bitch about spectating I'm not being nationalistic either, I'm still pissed at Mid-Ohio for putting in debris fencing in some of the places they did.  But good grief! What the hell is the razor wire for at Le Mans? And all the huge cement walls?  Call it Stalag Le Sarthe....
Fax

Hey guys I think that viewing was much better this year but still not ideal, the one place that is begging for a grandstand/veiwing area is the mulsanne maybe one just before a chicane and one where you can experiance the cars flat out .........Corvette fighter bomber.........what a soundtrack ;D ;D ;D

Anyone else regret the passing of that great stand of shady trees along the inside of the track between the Esses & Tertre Rouge?

I know the new bund in theory gives a better view, but I didn't see many people risking a good flaying to appreciate it.

Fax, I must admit that I was becoming a little disillusioned with the seemingly never ending decrease in viewing places at Le Mans. In 2002 I took my two young sons to the Tribunes and about two hours after the race started we were caught in a human traffic jam for about and hour and a half. Trust me it was no fun and I swore I would never go back there and so stayed at just Mulsanne and Arnage. However, having read about the work that was going on and as my sons were unable to attend this year (exams) I decided to take a look. I am really glad that I did. The improvements were simply outstanding. Movement was easy, the village was a little sanitised, but worked, the access and views at Tetre Rouge and up to the Dunlop bridge were breathtaking. In fact I travelled round the circuit and enjoyed spectacular views that I had never seen before in the 20 years that I have been to Le Mans. Further more I have it on good authority that there is a lot more worked planned for next year too. 'Viewing sucks', Fax, get up to date my old cocker, Le Mans is and will always be the Worlds Greatest Motor Race. ;D ;D

Here here monkey.  I believe the changes at Tertre Rouge are expected to produce even more banking next year.  "Sanitised" gravel run-off areas and miles of catch fencing  do change the character of the circuit but maybe some would prefer a repeat of 1955 or the repeated major deaths and injuries to drivers which used to occur in the old days.  That way they could whinge about how dangerous everything was intead.  Perhaps we should ask David Piper if he'd prefer the old-style circuit or his leg back?

Some sort of temporary stand at virage d'arnage,virage mulsanne, and what has now been called virage porche, etc would be very useful.  It's a bit galling to have to fight for a bit of earthen bank at such a prestige event.

Got to ask this because its always been a personal highlight for me when I've been there, does the field still roll to a virtual stop coming coming through the Dunlop Chicane on the opening lap?  Always thought that was classic, I swear if the cars had horns you would hear the drivers honking away, and maybe one could picture a couple of soccer moms yapping away on their cell phones somewhere in the middle of the pack.  Your right Termietermite if forgot, this is motor racing, we should all the give drivers I warm milky before sending them out of the pits, and make sure they have a teddy bear with them, you know how dark it gets out there at night.  Funny, I've been to a hell of alot of motor races over the past 36 years and have yet to see spectators being mowed down by flying cars or drivers...AHHHH! BURNING IN THEIR BELTS! As Dave H so wonderfully put it (that still cracks me up) Don't be such a Euro candy-ass.
Fax

I agree with you KPY, perhaps they should stick to (yawn) golf. ;)

Oh dear oh dear. Well thats us poor little Euro candy ass's put in our place. ;D ;D

Well, I guess if 45 years ago when a wheel flew off a mini at Rufforth it hadn't missed me by 6" and had landed on my head instead, then at least one person would have been pleased.  And sorry, isn't it the Americans who have brought the litigation society to us?  Euro candy-ass my backside.

Actually it was only a few years ago, maybe four that a wheel came of at Mulsanne when I was there, broke straight through the only high fence and hospitalised a couple of people. The year after, they had erected the second fence.

Oh and don't you mean your 'candy-ass backside' Termietermite??
 ;D ;D

Right.  Euro candy-ass my candy-assed backside.  Better?

I've got it!  I know how we can make it perfectly sanitized and safe for everyone...BUBBLE WRAP!
There we go, bubble wrapped drivers, bubble wrapped cars, bubble wrapped candy assed spectators!  sh*t! Gotta go, have to call the patent office.
Fax

Fax there is only one * in sh*t  ;D ;D

Be interesting to know how many grandstand seats there are at Le Mans as compared to other tracks.  Apart from the states, there always seem to be a lot  more to me than most other courses, and many of them covered.  Have you been to Donnington recently?  When they held an LMS round there a few years ago, there was just one grandstand and that had no protection from the rain/sun at all.  Spa is a joke.  Only the start line grandstand has a cover - sitting at Radion in the pouring Ardenne rain is no fun at all.

Typed in one I but the f**k*ng abusive language filter keeps checking me...f**k sh*t!  See what I mean.
f**k*ng candy ass filter ;D
Fax

Not if you type sh*t. There's a swear filter which alters the words, like f**k and w**k*r  ;D

Fax, you know how much I think diesel cars are a dead end street and I'm all against them etc. But I read that pathetic article and it's so woefully inaccurate and skewed it's beyond parody. This guy isn't being serious is he? Indeed I would question whether you are being serious too? I sincerely hope not.  :(

If it was such a stroll for Audi how come they didn't do a one-two? And as for his comments on Corvette;

"And how about Corvette winning the GT1 class in another huge surprise? So great were those two accomplishments that I had to spare myself further finish-list reading excitement -- such adrenaline rushes being nearly intolerable to a half-century-old body."

What a total jerk off! This man is nothing less than a walking talking penis. Thank God he's stopped attending the races I love. Perhaps he can content himself at the histoic races.

And for what it's worth, I reckon if you could speak to some of your late heros who died doing what we all love, driver and spectator safety would be pretty high on their agenda today if they were still around.

Better, it is important for us to know our place ;D ;D

Andy I agree with this 99%.

My only point of contention is with regard to Diesel. Audi have come to Le Mans in my humble opinion and used it for what it should be used for. They have tested technology to the limits of endurance. If they can then take what they have learnt and build better cars as a result, then surely that is a good thing? 

Andy,
You've met me and know that some of this is serious and most is for shits & giggles.  No doubt, our heroes had driver and spectator safety as a high priority.  That said, there is such a thing as overkill.  I've got a friend who emailed me and said "If that place (being Le Mans) looked any more antiseptic it would be a operating room" Watching racing from across two hundred yards of gravel doesn't get it for me.
Fax

Fax - First, yes I've been to races where spectators have been killed by flying debris or even a car which leapt the protective banking.
Second, the uninformed rubbish is the badly-written article you posted a link to. I've read nothing in it that tells me the viewing is sh**t. The article IS sh**t though.
I spent quite a lot of time this last weekend with a bunch of guys whose job it is to be on the other side of the fencing you so detest. The chief marshal is ten years younger than I am, but has had the sad task of failing to get a driver out of a car alive at his post at Le Mans on three separate occasions. One of the other guys I spent a lot of time with is called Steve Tarrant. He's still marshalling, but is confined to a wheelchair after being hit by a car at Goodwood seven years ago, which cost him a leg (and nearly both of them) and cost the guy standing beside him his life. Do you really want to put the viewing public to be exposed to the same risks, just so that you can get a better view? For myself I had my stopwatch on Paul Hawkins (hit unguarded tree), Jo Siffert (crap fuel cells) and Gilles Villeneuve (crap qualifying regulations and bad luck). I saw Ronnie Peterson and his F2 March end up against a flimsy fence at Mallory Park, within a whisker of harming a whole crowd of spectators
You say you were there a couple of years ago, uphill downhill etc - I've been going since 1981 (I came to Le Mans  20 years after I started going to Grands Prix), and I know my way around - I've never had a problem with the view even though I need my mountain bike to cover the extremities of the circuit and each year requires a little tweaking to find the best spots. I admit that I'm lucky  to get access to the infield on the Mulsanne (you still have to be nice to the gendarmes and stewards, or you don't see anything), but even without that there are good viewing spots and they have been considerably improved this year. As for "milk for the drivers" and other drivel you come up with, I happened to be where the Lamborghini stopped on the circuit on Sunday afternoon. I got to put my head virtually into the cockpit. It was like an oven - no exageration. How those guys race in those temperatures and remain conscious, I have no idea.
Your ideas about Europe seem to have been borrowed from George Bush. An occasional visit does not make you an expert. Keep your candy up your own ass, engage your hillybilly brain and start talking out of your mouth for a change.

Cheers kpy, monkey et al.  I live here and I find the French's oppinions as varied as our own but don't hear anything like the amount of xenophobic drivel I read here, whether it's said "tongue in cheek" or not.  Having watched motor racing in all its forms since I was 5, I too have seen some pretty horific accidents both to spectators and drivers.  The fewer of these there are the better.  I would love to go back to the old days in terms of the views I got but in the end the great thing is to know that far more drivers survive accidents and spins than did in the old days.  Our heros of today are reaching 50+ and still driving (quite competitively in some cases).
Candy-asses rule OK. 

Great rant KPY!  Ouch! the comparison to Bush smarts, but I take being called a hillbilly a compliment.  Sorry if you don't like my being critical your sacred cow, just calling it like I see it.  Simply put, compared to the other venues I go, the spectating is very poor.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, ours differ.
Fax

Like where?  I admit Spa is good but for god's sake it's in the mountains.  Suppose you want the ACO to build some of those too?

Fax, your opinion is based on out of date information I'm afraid. The article was sh*t, and I am surprised that anyone would want to put on any site, less alone this one.

No you're not a hillybilly, but you and Bush share the brains of one. You may think you are calling it how it is, but that's just ignorance. If safety is my sacred cow, well I'd rather my friend Steve still had his leg and his friend were still alive, but you carry on calling it how you see it.
Your original post was "someone else thinking like me" - well he thinks nonsense, and he can't write either!
 Give me a call next time you're coming to Le Mans and I'll show you where to spectate, including a place with no debris fencing, waist-high armco and twenty metres from the track - 100% legal.

No, refering to the North American circuits I attend, Sebring, Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Road America, IMS etc. In all seriousness, none of the circuits I've mentioned have any had spectator safety issues.
Road Atlanta had become quite dangerous for the competitors at the speeds IMSA GTP cars were racing at but the multi-million dollar facelift a few years ago resloved all of that nicely and its still a majestic spectator venue.  All of them are very safe for the competitors (witness Pedro Lamy's flight in May at Mid-Ohio) but still afford the spectators terrific vantage points.
Fax

I consider one obvious difference to the Le Mans 24 Hour circuit and most US circuits to be the length of a lap at LM and the fact that there are some long straight areas where potential speeds can be very high.

Le Mans is around 8.5 miles whereas Sebring is (from memory) a third of that, all tucked into itself on a flat elevation with shorter straights and (in proportion to it's length) more corners.

Geographically, Le Mans covers more acreage without any reversals in the circuit tucking it into itself like at Sebring.

A closer analogy to a similar US circuit would be the LM Bugatti circuit.  This has many corners (for it's length) and less catch fencing.  The raised areas and semi amphitheatre geography of the Chapelle areas would make viewing and photo opportunities on a par to, in my opinion, Sebring.

Spot on Steve. On the Bugatti circuit you get very good uninterupted views of and into the cars. Shame it's the original Mickey Mouse circuit, though. I think it was Graham Hill who coined the phrase in July 1967.

Will be good to see the DTMs and the Oreca Saleens tackling the Bugatti in October.  It certainly is a good circuit for photography and get some good shots of the cars coming under kpy's bridge with the video camera on the tripod.  Pits grandstand is good too although you get fit running back and forth to catch sight of the cars on both sides of the grandstand!

Apologies all around to those I have offended on this thread the past few days.  After going back and reading them, yes I was being a complete w**k*r!
And yes, your right that column is utter crap.  Felt like stirring up the pot a bit but crossed way over the bounds of good taste.  Just being an Ugly American!
But I do think Bush is a complete dickhead, so I should get a few points for that.
Cheers all,
Hillbilly Bush Ugly American Fax

Hey! I did better than "silly person", the abusive language police nailed me again.  Who's running this show?
Fax

Can definately have 100 points for the Bush remark in my book.

I did think viewing was getting worse. I used to spend the night watching from the Cafe on the straight. It was truly mesmerising watching the Jags and Porches thunder past at over 200mph, if only i had a video camera then!
It still was not to bad with the chicanes as they came past and stood on the brakes. I started to get peeved when they put up the fencing, but watching one night a chunk of tyre rubber hit the fence in front of me so i could see why.
I stopped watching there when they wouldn't let you stand by the outside armco, only behind another fence so there was a brief glimpse of car going by.
I still cannot see why they stop you looking at the cars heading into Indianapolis.
The Porche curves viewing is not bad, like the very end where you can see the cars coming from Arnarge.
The dunlop chicane is a joke, how much gravel is in that.
The run down from the bridge i do like, i thought it wouldn't but it's not bad.
On the inside of the Esses you could stand at the top of the new bank and see from the Bridge to the Mulsanne.
I suppose we could post on the ACO site they may do something.
And rant on Fax, always good posts ;D

I've come into this a bit late and here's my 2c worth. Fax is a very close friend of mine and uber-knowledeable and fanatic about motorsport (not just sportscar racing). I've attended the 24 Heures 20 times (though sadly not this year), so I feel I can speak with a little 'wool on my back'. It's easy to get all nostalgic about what it WAS like - progress moves things in good and bad ways.
I feel that modifications made to the circuit during my attendances, which started with the installation of chicanes on Hunnaudiers, moved to reshaping Dunlop, rebuilding pit complex, reshaping virage Ford and lately Dunlop Bridge to Esses have changed the circuit very significantly.
A lot of the mods, I understand, are to make the secondary (Bugatti) circuit safer for motorcycle racing. Gravel traps in the 'complex' before the Esses are unnecessarily large - partcularly when you look at Porsche Curves - similar track conditions run between concrete walls, with a grass verge. 
The circuit has lost what I really liked about it - and I have for a very long time, bitched about how miserable the spectating has become in the main enclosures. Sure, it is possible (and I've done it) to covertly visit parts of the track under cover of darkness - but that shouldn't be necessary. I also feel that there is a lot of debris fencing placed in areas unlikely to need that protection from errant cars, or parts of them. I suspect they are there to prevent over-zealous fans getting onto the track before the ACO wants them to.
Finally the US circuits that we visit are far superior to Le Mans if getting up close and personal with the cars on the track is your aim (I don't go to LM to watch the race anymore - and I don't think I'm alone in this - the party and the friendship is the attraction for me these days). Read the back of your ticket - the "motor racing is dangerous" bit - and let's not piss and moan about the poor beleagured drivers - they know the score.
Hurling insults at one another is the weakest form of debate (can be fun - but can also be quite hurtful, particularly when written, rather than spoken).
You don't suddenly become an authority because a tyre nearly hit you once upon a time - or your buddy got creamed in a track accident. Rightly or wrongly, that's what happens in this sport sometimes. Bending the track so that the race field comes to a frickin' halt on lap one isn't a solution. 

Have no fear, I'm quite happy to be called a Euro candy-ass!  It makes a change from "wishy-washy liberal!"  I'm sure we all take these things as they are meant - a serious point which we all have strong feelings about debated in a fun, if sometimes a bit over-the-top way.  Keeps the debate alive.
Unoffended of Europe.

KPY,
You mentioned Superswede's '71 Mallory Park shunt,
found these pics.  Yep, old Ronnie scattered a fair amount of dirt and fibreglass in that one.
Fax

That's the one. I was there. ;)