Club Arnage

and still looking good.
Rusty

Remarkably so.  A five ship flyby is happening this weekend up Southampton water to overfly the original Supermarine works at Wollaston, where RJ Mitchell and his team designed the aircraft and onward to Eastleigh, now Southampton International, where K5054, the prototype, made its first flight.

AND still more are being made airworthy, hardly seems possible!!  The latest will be a Seafire, the first to be renovated to airworthy condition.

Superb  ;D

Nice to see you back Peter.  How are you?

Yep truely amazing aircraft.

Still the prettiest aircraft ever built, and it was as effective as it was lovely.  Good to see so many still flying, very much a symbol of British determination.
Remember Adolf Galland's famous quote when asked by Goering what he needed to win the Battle of Britain..."A staffel of Spitfires"
Fax

I shall be posting a report and some photos, with and without hair!!!!  yes it has comeout already!!

The Hurricane also needs to be remembered, they took the brunt of the fighting during the Battle of Britain, more aircraft, more kills etc.  Always overshadowed by the Spitfire.

Oh his death bed RJ Mitchell was told that the Air Ministry had selected his aircraft and would be going into production, when told of the name, he said, "they would choose a bloody silly name"

Comes from the lack of tooling for making the wing main spars (a tapered, seamless extruded tube) until a set was found lying around rusting at the back of a British Aerospace factory about 20 years ago.   That is what had limited the numbers being brought/kept airworthy for so long, as without new main spars, they all had very limited remaining fatigue lifespans (which was why a lot of the Spitfire displays until then were straight flybys, wide turns etc)   At that point, the RAF flogged off all the Spitfire gate guardians it still had at the time (because they became worth something to restorers!) other languishing in scrapyards were resurrected etc etc.   Since then, from the late 80's onwards when new main spars became available, the numbers in airworthy condition and capable of putting up, shall we say, a "spirited" display has soared.   There might be a bit of the "George Washington axe syndrome", but with the sight and sound of a Spitfire on full noise outweighs loss of originality.   Long may they continue.   Best I can recall was the nine-ship put up at Abingdon in 1984, that flew over with the middle one in the formation pulling up in a "missing man" tributr to Bader.

MG Mark

very true, spars and other parts, over the last twenty years many small businesses have begun re-making spares.  I remeber being part of a team rebuilding an airworthy  Mk XIV, very moving working on it.

The sight and sound of a Spitfire on full chat has to be the embodyment of British Spirit, its just great that they keep them flying.

There was an interesting program on the Discovery Wings channel over here several years ago regarding the restoration of Spits and the work involved was pretty staggering. Re-jigging them, replacing all the wing spars and rivets with new aviation standard materials, replacing instrumentation, etc.  They pointed out that one of the problems with keeping them flying is the simple fact that as a combat aircraft, they only had a life expectancy of a couple of month's at the most and they weren't built with materials that would hold up well over long periods of time.
Fax

True, but lets not forget the hunter in the beauty stakes.

ASSUMING THAT THIS THREAD HAS NOW BE OFFICIALLY HIJACKED.  I'M STICKING MY NECK OUT HERE AND NOMINATING THE MOST BEAUTIFUL AIRCRAFT EVER.

I'm a Yank and biased toward our bomber crew's best friend.
Fax

AGREED FAX, BUT THE MOST BEAUTIFUL?  FOR THE USA, HOW ABOUT THE P38 LIGHTNING? OR P61 BLACK WIDOW?

Always thought the Lightning pretty but found the Black Widow odd looking.  I've got photos of Glacier Girl, the P-38 Lightning they found a few years ago frozen in a glacier and restored, taken at the Dayton Air Show (same place I took the Mustang pic, she was just a few yards away)  They had the original instruments all laying around on display...She was a mess when they found her!
I'll post some when I get a chance to scan them (Capt. Volls American Beauty I had on the hard drive here at work).
Fax

This cracks me up every time I see it.  .

Alan De Cadenet getting frightened by a Spitfire.

Warning - Contains Foul Language

http://alexisparkinn.com/oh_my_god.htm

;D ;D ;D

I remember the first photo's taken.  If memory serves a flight of p-38 were en-route to the UK, had problems and LANDED in Greenland.  Over the years with the snow the aircraft were covered and ended up 100+ft below the surface, steam was used to get to the aircraft and over a period the aircraft was stripped and returned to the USA.  The original team completed the aircraft to a point and the project was subsequently "bought" with the input from them.  Truly a marvellous tale and more aircraft to be recovered including a couple of B-17's.

Thinking of beautiful aircraft, some of the US commercial aircraft of the 1930's were truly beautiful, have to dig the books out.

P-38 Lightning - Yes.  A lovely aircraft and an inspiration for Harley Earl and the '50's Cadillac tail fins.

But lets talk about a REAL Lightning - English Electric stylie.

This aircraft really kicked some bottom !  Basically a pilot strapped to two Rolls Royce Avons.

(http://hsgalleries.com/images/lightningf6jb_1.jpg)

Now you're talking, Steve. :)


Bootiful!


Glad to have you back too, Peter.

Talking about wing rebuilding,, anyone know if it is true that the BBMF Hurricane received the metal wings from the Birmingham Science Museum Hurri, as I was told.

I grew up with that Hurricane and Spitfire, always in the Science Museum whenever I went walkabout from Skool.
(Which, sadly was far too often!) :(

Hey Guys,
As I said, I'm biased for America's beloved Mustang (like the Spitfire, a lot of them still flying thank God! Indy legend Johnny Rutherford being a pilot of one)  But we Yanks haven't forgotten that the P-51 sports a British engine that transformed the original design, thanks guys for the Rolls!  Those engines in those fast, manueverable, and armed to the teeth little bastards saved the lives of a hell of alot of B-17 and B-24 crews, and made life hell for the Luftwaffe fighters that got close to a bomber formation, they knew Mustangs were waiting in the sun!
The story of Glacier Girl is a great one, I'll see if I can find the PBS video of her story, you'll love it.  Pics to come.
Fax

John, I too saw the Glacier Girl documentary on Discovery some time ago.  I suspect it cost a fair chunk of money to restore.

I liked the way they bored through the ice - a steam heated 'ring' that melted and sank deeper to provide a shaft.  Would you have worked on removing the aircraft deep down in the ice in that cold wet chamber !!  :o

Another (albeit disasterous) attempt to remove a B17 from the glacial ice in Greenland was brave, but sadly cost the life of one of the crew and the B17 to fire - started by an overturned small generator in the fuselage.

Happy Birthday to the old girl. I get a tingle up my spine whenever I hear and see one in flight, the sound may be the best engine note ever heard bar none.

As for the best looking plane, Spitfire aside, may I put forward the Vulcan bomber. One of the reasons I used to look forward to the British GP as a lad was the fly by by the bomber, the noise used to shake you.

As a mere slip of a lad my good old dad took me to the Biggin Hill airshow in the early 60's.
As well as getting to see the fabulous V bombers in flight, we also had our hearing SHATTERED by the Lightning formation team as unseen they crested a hill and flew at very low altiutude on full afterburners across the airfield. All the adults hit the deck and all the kids immediately burst into tears. It was terrifying, and I feel very proud and privileged that I had the opportunity to be scared to f**cking death by a flight of these beauties.
I'll never forget it.
Rusty

Not particularly the prettiest, but by god was the Vulcan the most impressive thing in the sky. :)

I even went to the old girls, birthday party at Woodford in the 90's when I was a membeer of the Vulcan Association. They had a hugh cake, a 60's band a big marque, and a special display by XH558 before parking her up nose to nose with Woodfords Vulcan outside the marque for a photo shoot.

I even took a petition around my village trying to drum up support to get the RAF to pay for the main spar replacement so she could continue to fly and do displays. But to no avail sadly. :'(

The good news Chris that 558 will fly again.  http://www.vulcan558club.com/.  Speaking of Squadron visits, has any one seen a QRA Vulcan Scramble.  LOUD. IMPRESSIVE. UNFORGETABLE

I used to work at a building which backed onto Buckingham Palace and remember the Vulcan fly-pasts for Her Maj's birthday well.

See you in Sebring Chris....ohhhh I`m not allowed to mention Sebring in this thread, sorry if I offended anyone.

Steve, I remember the failed attempt to rescue the bomber from the ice very well, was actually a B-29 Superfortress.  There's only one flying B-29 at the moment, with a couple of others close to flying condition.
When Fee-Fee (the flying) B-29 was in town a couple of years ago I mentioned the botched attempt to rescue the other Superfort and he said that they just got in too much of hurry to get out of there and hadn't checked all the systems thoroughly, and as you said a small generator came loose and whoosh! Big fire!
You guys mentioned how loud the Lightning was, loudest I've ever heard was when my uncle was still in the USAF he was stationed at Warner Robbins AFB in Georgia, which also happened to be a SAC base, he took my brother and I out to watch B-52's take off a couple of times, talk about something that could wake the dead!  The ground shook beneath you when they made their take off run.  The C-130's that he flew were Piper Cubs by comparison.
Fax

Now you're talking John.  B52 Stratofortress, what a wicked aircraft.  There was another good documentary on Disco Wings recently saying that the expected life of the remaining aircraft is likely to be towards 2030, giving the design a total in-service life of nearly 80 years  :o

Seeing these giants flying at low level with a smokey haze from all 8 engines is a site to behold.

A good first flight video here - http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/b52-strat/b52_50th/videos.htm

(http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/b52-takeoff.jpg)

Yes the BUFF, Big Ugly Fat F******, is loud and smokie, looks like a barn door coming over the horizon on RADAR. BUT is it BEAUTIFUL?

It'll never be described as pretty, but impressive? 
Hell Yes!
My buddy Carl and I spoke to a B-52 pilot at the Dayton Air Show where one was on display and he said his father flew them as well.  As Steve pointed out, with the anticipated life expectancy of Stratofort fleet there could be three or four generations worth of B-52 pilots in a family.  We've gotten our tax dollars worth out the old nail..and then some!  Tough bird too.  At the USAF Museum at Wright-Patt AFB in Dayton there's one on display that took a SAM hit over Hanoi and made it home.
You ought to see the way the fuselage is buckled.
Back to the Spitfire thread for a second, at the USAF Museum there's a lovely Battle of Britain display, Spit, Hurricane and ME-109E all sitting side by side.  Was there once with a friend who's a Irish ex-pat and his father who was over from Ireland, we went up and when Shane's father saw the display he looked at the Spit and said Pah! Only the pretty boys flew Spits (apparently he worked on Hurricanes)
Fax

You want LOUD ? Then nothing is lowder than a Tupolov TU-22 taking off on full reheat. Saw one at Farnborough once and it set off every car alarm , the ground shook and I had a head ache for the next three hours ! >:(

Loads of good stuff.   

Piston- engined - Spitfire - has to be the all-time great - the history and it just looks graceful from any angle.   The jest equivalent has to be the Fairey Delta 2......

Good choice Mark, do you prefer this over BAC 221?  If only Duncan Sands hadn't proclaimed that manned interceptors were not needed we may have seen the FD2 in Squadron service, what a tale that would be.  It is a well know fact that when the FD 2 went to west France for tests, Marcel Dassault through a tape measure around it and produced the Mirage series.  Another loss for us.

As if.

Aah the Fairey Delta, the days when we had X planes and wasn't it a testbed for the Concorde wing shape,  And whatever happened to the another X plane, thel Hawker P1127.

All true and documented!!!

The P1127 went on to be the Harrier

The Mirage did indeed bear more than a passing resemblance!

Of course in terms of birthdays, the shuttleworth's Birstol monoplane - original airframe and engine, is now 96 years young...


P1127 ended up as the Harrier

The mirage did indeed bear a remarkable similarity.

Straying back to the birthday subject, the Shuttleworth's Bristol monoplane is now 96 years young, with the original airframe and engine....some progress in 24 years to the Spitfire........

Read a book in hospital about the FD 2, it is true, that the design was copied, in point of fact if you overlay the two aircraft they are "identical" in dimensions.

The book says " in the autumn of 1956 it (FD 2) spent a month based at Casuax, near the west coast of France, and flew supersonically at heights down to 3,500ft, which would have been forbidden in Britain.  It was here that that Marcel Dassault decided that this was the shape to go for, and designed the Mirage III as a radar-equipped FD 2.

Of course there was the ultimate Mirage............

Yes a large ogee delta, but I the French partner was Aerospatiale, not Dassault.

Another sucker. I think the old gits all know that one, it was just refreshing to have an era when aircraft manufacturers could experiment without going bust in the process.

As for noise - Silverstone 1983 (I think)  Vulcan, low pass, sits on tail, opens everything, doesn't seem to move for 30 seconds, slowly rises into air, everything vibrating.  Like a Lightning in very slow motion

Ok, lets not forget this lovely beastie that we can thank the labour government for scrapping before it could go into service. Just so they could jump into bed with the USA. The bastards ! >:(

The BAC TSR2

Chris do you remember this ?  TSR2 cancelled, F111K ordered and cancelled, F4K/M ordered for RAF and FAA plus additional Buccaneers.  Jaguar developed. Mountbatten spoke against the TSR2 to the Aussies hoping they would buy Buccaneers, they ordered F111C & G's instead. 

As it turned out, the Tornado became more or less what the TSR.2 was to have been. That it was still slightly less capable than the TSR.2 had been projected to be a full fifteen years earlier says a great deal about how far advanced the TSR.2 project really was. That the TSR.2 was all-British (bar some electronics) and the Tornado required the cooperation of three countries also says a great deal about just how good the British aircraft industry was.

Don Knight TSR2 test pilot said: "It was simply amazing. It flew just like a big Lightning - only faster!

Now we have Typhoon 2 to fight against our chums the Soviets.  Where's the sense.

The RAF wrote a piece some years ago about TSR2 in service, must find it and put on the forum, made interesting reading.

Over budget, seriously delayed, suspect flight controls, built to fight what enemy, still not in service.

But a nice looking aircraft  ::)

That goes for an awful lot of industries not only the aircraft industry !!
Rusty

Steve,
I think that you will find that it is in service, the RAF are already flying them. The pilots love it and i haven't heard anything about suspect flying contols either.

I work at BAe Warton where we build it by the way. For several years through Case white, the RAF operated out of 4 and 5 hangers but that is now over and they are now operating out of their own bases.

Correct about over delayed and over budget though !

The TSR2's were built at Weybridge (Brooklands), one is in The Cosford museum, Telford (well worth dropping in and its free) and one at Duxford, a few decades ahead of its time, this link describes its sad demise.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/tsr2.html

Ian the Duxford aircraft has just been rolled out after an extensive refurbishment. For Duxford's new AirSpace exhibition hall, charting the highs of the British aircraft industry over the last century.

Could be a mid-year club arnage outing?

Peter

>>Could be a mid-year club arnage outing?<<

Put me down for that one.

I often marvel at Cosford's TSR2, beautiful aircraft. Have to say that their Vulcan was looking in need of tender loving care last time I saw it. Couple of years ago.

On a nicer note, when I visisted Kemble last year they had a Brittania outside the Bristol Museum that looked absolutely pristine. From the edge of the museum! But when I drove past it to visit the Hunter workshops area the other side was unpainted, but was obviously a "work in progress" At least everything we built hasn't gone without trace.

The Bristol Museum has some wonderful kit inside, A Harrier airframe with PCB, Belvedere and Sycamore 'copters and the last remaining Bristol Brigand fuselage as rescued from a scrapyard. Really sad.

 :(

As promised...Glacier Girl.
Fax

From the same show, The USAF Thunderbirds and the US Navy Blue Angels strut their stuff.
Fax

Now for something completely homely.
Nighthawk and the Guppy.
Fax

Bill, lot of changes afoot at Kemble, the tenure of the Whispering Giant is in doubt and the two airframes are being moved to new hanger space this year.  I quite like visiting Duxford, mainly to see the airframe renovation progress.

Shall think of same dates for a visit.  Peter

Now that is one serious "Chrome Dome " ;D

What about the Mosquito...

The Mks II, III ands IV could fly at 380 mph - 19 mph faster than the Battle of Britain Spitfire and 50 mph faster than the Hawker Hurricane.

Martini...

Yes they told me about the museum moving when Gwyn and I visited. They thought there would be another hangar they could use though, is this now in doubt?

Outside the Museum hangar they seem to have enough Brit bitz to build a couple more...

Just as we drove away we were lucky enough to watch one of the Hunters being refurbished taking off for an evening test flight, superb!

yes the Mossie was attractive The Hornet a decendent and hence my nomination, beautiful lines, graceful and very fast.  Sadly none survive, parts thats all.  A real shame.  I'm almost positive it was the fastest prop driven aircraft in serice 485 MPH.

Was the Mosquito wood-framed or am I thinking of something else?

Yes, I believe you're thinking of Uncle Albert.
H

Yes quite right.  The aircraft was a private venture by DH.  As the Air Ministry hadn't commissioned it DH were unable to secure metal for the construction, It is known as the Wooden Wonder.  In essence everything is timber except for the engines and bits of the cockpit and control linkages.  A special glue was developed to laminate the aircraft together.  The fuselage was built in two halves split along the vertical centre line and attached together once the inside had been fitted out.  The prototype is still alive and well. http://www.mossie.org/W4050.htm

DH carried over this technique to most of its aircraft from then on including the early jets like the venom and vampire, just think of that!

A few last ones from the Dayton Air Show.
One for Phil, The Royal Canadian Snowbirds.
Air superiority fifty years apart, F-15 Eagle with Mustangs (sporting their D-Day stripes).

And finally, some dumb-ass ;D looking into the bad news end of a A-10.
Fax

What exactly did you expect to see up there John??  ::)  ;D

Was checking out the amazing rifling of the barrels (about .125 deep!) but clearly the woman looking back is suspicious.
Fax

Maybe another form of wooden framed transport??  ;D

(http://www.morgan-nordic.com/02_mapp/morgtjej3.jpg)

I must say i think the Mosquito is one of the best looking aircraft. Pretty capable to. Could fly to Berlin and drop a 5000lb cookie. As it flew so high and fast virtually nothing could touch it.
The wooden construction could prove a problem, my father in law remembered a delivery flight coming into Changhi Singapore, within 2 days they had warped, all they could do was strip them of anything useful and burn the rest!

If I remember it right it didn't take de Havilland long to come up with new adhesives that prevented a recurrence of that sad state either. I think they were early users of epoxy glues after that happened.

I know that Vamps and Venoms didn't have it happen to them in the jungles.

Hornet, beautiful. Never had a good accurate kit of it either. Frog made one that managed to make it a really stunted shape, a real shame.

(Still, made me a few bob when I sold my last one on e*ay) ;)

My favourite was the anti-shipping version - fitted with a 6-pounder gun!   Not only could very little match the Mosquito for speed and height, but being primarily made of wood (except for two lumps of Merlins) the radar signature was minimal, making it even harder to detect and intercept.   Its versatility was incredible, both in terms of roles (fighter, nightfighter, point ground attack, general bomber, pathfinder leader, anti-shipping to name the main ones) and armaments (500lb bombs, 1000lb bombs, 4000lb bomb, incendiaries, target markers, rockets, 6-pounder gun, machine guns and 20mm cannon).   

MG Mark

Bill there are some excellent 72nd and 48th models, check this out

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=CF458

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=CF459

Possibly of interest to the warbird admirers:

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/06/gns_glaciergirl_070619/

There was a documentary on Discovery about recovering and rebuilding this P38 a few years ago - very interesting.

They used a steam heated cylinder to melt a shaft down through the ice to where the plane was entombed.

Hi Guys,

I've shown my Dad this thread and it nearly brought tears to his eyes.

He used to service the electronics in Huricanes, Spitfires, Mosquitos and after demobbing to private inductry, The Beloved Vulcan.

His favourite was the Mossie.

For my Dads 70th in 1995, I bought him a limited edition picture of Vulcan 607, it's called 'Corporate Prelude' by Phillip West, it was not cheap!

The Christmas just gone I was in Waterstones in Chichester trying to find a book for myself but spied a book by Rowland White - Vulcan 607. Guess what my Dad got for Christmas.  Both the picture and the book commerorate the most remarkable British air attach since WW2, the Stanley attack.

When I was growning up in Welwyn GC in the 50's, my school - Howlands IS had a Spitfire on the playground!! and yes we played on it.  We were right next door to Pangshanger.

Guys,  my favourite and it does bring tears to my eyes because of sheer beauty and that noise is the Spitfire.

Jerry

.