Club Arnage

I was trying to get a concensus from the US contingent going to Le Mans what the best route to take from Paris is? Is the 'Via Michelin' site the best route to take or have you found quicker more alternate routes are better? I'm looking to be there on thursday so I hope there is still ample space at Bleu Nord in the campground. Lets talk!  :)

The Michelin site is a good one. Are you travelling by rental car? If so, try to avoid rush hour on the perriferic ( goes all around paris). It is always very busy but round rush hour it's completely congested. The TGV train might be an alternative. It is a good 2 hour drive from Paris to the circuit. I think Mapquest also gives some good directions.

Space at bleu nord will probably not be an issue, if you need tickets still, talk to me, we have spares! As for your 2006 goals: number one, no problem, that's a given, number two, no drinking while racing for Johnny and number 3, if you get it, please post it here!!

Enjoy

knetter,
First of all I can't tell you how much that McQueen...well billboard LOL....Absolutely ROCKS! I was going to say 'poster' but it wouldn't do it justice. Yeah me and a buddy are going to driving down in a rental. The thought was to hit Reims then go over to Rouen  to see what is left of the circuits there. Then down to Le Mans for thursday afternoon. Upon reading the other posts I may have to re-evaluate the logistics of that..hmm I do have confirmed tics through the ACO for bleu nord so that should be a non-issue. But if it does become one I will definitely keep that in mind! While checking out your site I started to get the impression that there will be HELLA, banners and printed murals everywhere. Since I am an artist I may have to offer up my airbrushing skills to the friendly populace of this forum and see if anyone wants a custom airbrushed banner. I'll post a link to the one I did of Montoya for the '01 USGP @ Indy http://www.montoya-gallery.com/Pics/paintings/JuanBack_gr.jpg
Keep in mind that wasn't long after Zanardi had his huge shunt at the Lausitzring, hence the well wishes at the bottom.

I didn't think my goals for '06 would be too laughty, as you said 1) is a given, 2) may be possible earlier in the week 3) if that happens, to quote Matt Bishop of F1 Racing 'ah that'd be tellin'' ;)

Quick word of advice, you'll be wasting your time going to Rouen les Essarts looking for the old circut.
Nothing exist anymore....NOTHING!  They've even paved over the cobblestones at the hairpin.
You don't actually read F1 Racing do you?(LOL)

Fax,
I'm aware of the status of Rouen, there aren't any pits now and the old Chicane  is still at Six Freres but the rest of the place is normal looking now unfortunately. I wish they'd have taken a page out of Reims book and tried to restore, what can ya do? Was that in the most recent issue of F1 or something? I do remember them doing a photo shoot at Reims a year or so back. If anything it would be a nice stopover on the way up to Normandy to pay my respects....

Sorry, don't read F1, would be embarrassed to be seen reading it, think its bunch of tabloid crap for teenagers. (some people I know who work in the sport think likewise)  Anything that Peter Windsor writes for has zilch in the way of credibilty.
Have a good friend who vacationed in France last summer, he stopped by Rouen and relayed the grim news.
Fax

Yeah I saw it on the racingcircuits.net site, wish I could have went in the early 90's it still had the pits and grandstands too. The pics had a feeling that greatness once echoed through the trees there, unfortunately its gone...F1 is the only mag I'm really able to get around here what do you read? Autosport?

As far I'm concerned Autosport falls into the same category.  I read Motor Sport and Motorcycle Racer.
The rest I pull off the web.  I subscribed to Autosport from 1973 till 1997.  Couldn't stomach what it had become and dropped it.  Read a copy from 70's or 80's and compare to the fluff BS of todays incarnation.  There is no comparison.
Used to read Autosport sitting around the student lounge in college back in the early eighties, and as I said, would be embarrassed to be seen reading it now.
Fax

Johnny,

The picture of Steve McQueen really doesn't do it the credit it deserves. Come see it in real life at Maison Blanche next year. There will be a smaller version of it at turn 10 at Sebring this year. To give you some numbers on the hight. The scaffolding we put up was 5 meters high or 15 foot.The billboard was 12 foot high and I think 9 foot wide. This year it will be hanging down from the scaffolding again, but slightly higher.

As for you airbrush art. I liked the link you put in your post. It looks very cool. I don't think we would mind having one done, we are currently in the process of painting a banner for the racing for holland team which is going to be 30 foot long and 24 foot high. Just stop buy at Le Mans for a beer and who knows what will come from it.

I was thinking of doing one for Jan Lammers in the Jaguar XJR-9LM, decked out in the 'Silk Cut' colors. I'm still kicking around some ideas for that and for a similar t-shirt scheme. I'll keep you posted on how it will shake out. Of corse I'll stop by for a beer!  :)

The quickest route is the A10 motorway out of Paris, connecting with the A11 motorway just
before Chartes. But, the A11 turns into a toll road soon after, and the toll from Chartes to
Le Mans is around #20.   Get off before the toll road and take N32 into Lemans, and save
the toll and buy a couple cases of beer.

Thanks for the hot tip, I'll have to keep that one in mind scotto. :-)

Fax, I know you posted this with the best possible motives, but it is simply wrong to say that nothing remains of the original circuit. True, the stands have gone, along with the pits - it was a crime to demolish those buildings, especially the pits and control tower, but nobody was prepared to put up the cash required, and the stands were crumbling into the road. The cobbles at Nouveau Monde have been lifted - a great shame, but they were slippery when wet and there's a stop sign there... Some of the spectator terracing remains.
The long circuit (1955-1954) had to be shortened when the A13 was built in 1972 - the link from Beauval to the motorway as still there, some of it only accessible on foot - and the new link from Beauval to Paradis was built - you could still walk this until last summer, as it was preserved as a foot/cycle path, but they were busy resurfacing it then and removing at least some of the old rumble kerbs. Today you can drive the entire original (1950-1954) circuit, Six Freres (there's no chicane there) and all. It's trace has changed very little over the years, unlike Le Mans, which has been changed at almost every corner and the pits, paddock and grandstands demolished and replaced.
Reims is something else. The grandstands and pits remain, and Les Amis du Circuit du Gueux http://acg.site.voila.fr/ are making an effort to renovate the stands and pits, but very slowly. Most of the pits straight remains, but Thillois and Gueux corners have vanished beneath road improvements.
All the same both Rouen-les-Essarts and Reims are well worth visiting.
There are also the two Dieppe circuits, of which the 1907-1912 version in particular is still recognisable and fun to drive - since it passes though several small towns and villages. I can't get my Alfa round quicker than about 6th fastest time in 1907, even on Christmas morning, holding over 100mph on the straights, and there are miles of straights.
Jonnyspa27, If you're flying in to CDG and hiring a car, and want to visit Reims and Rouen-les-Essarts, maybe Dieppe too, I'd go Paris (CDG), Reims, Amiens, Rouen, Le Mans, and avoid the Paris peripherique altogether. It's almost all motorway now.
Having sad that, they're talking about holding an exhibition in June of racing cars along the Champs Elysees over the last century to celebrate the centenary of the French Grand Prix. You can get the RER metro from the airport to cental Paris in no time flat, though.
Which ever way you go have fun.  ;)

I was thinking of doing the Reims, Rouen Le Mans route initially but it seems that getting to Le Mans first and then doing that trip would make more sense because of the camping space available. I think we were going to arrive on tue or Wed. I would like to have some time to devote to those places. I also contacted the president of Les Amis du Circuit du Gueux to see if I could help at a work day cleaning and refurbishing signage. I think it would be a great experience for my graphic design degree. It would be a study not only historically but internationally as well. Also I wasn't too aware of the Dieppe circuit, can you give me a bit of history on that, I'd love to find out more!

Jonny, there's a location map and a bit of info here http://www.racingcircuits.net/France/index.html

(and is a useful starting source for other circuits of the world)

Fair enough KPY, was going on word of mouth from a friend who had been there.  Was simply tying to save him the frustration of going there only to find a few bits of curbing, which was how my friend described it.
Fax

Steve,
Funny you should mention that because thats how I found out about Rouen's current state!  ;) I think it is really unfortunate that they didn't keep the facilities, its not like they're developing it into a Wal Mart or an office building. I'd like to think they could have refurbished it like they are doing over at Reims but c'est la vie. They do have historic motorbike races every year and according to their site Ago, yes Giacamo Agostini will be attending this years meeting! Very exciting for them...

JS,
If interested in meeting Ago you may want to have a look at this.  http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=24924
Fax

That looks pretty effin' sweet, nobody like Ago, a true living legend!  8)

Very great rider indeed, I was more of a Jarno Saarinen or Mike Hailwood kid personally.  Ago was a gifted rider but never had to work for a thing in his life, came from a wealthy family and had everything handed to him  Saarinen doubled as his own mechanic and raced on a shoestring, and still blew Ago's doors off.
Fax

Far from the site being developed as a Wal Mart, it's a public forest with loads of facilities for walking, picnicing and cycling. There have been occasions when the road from the old pits to Nouveau Monde was closed to allow collectors' cars a blast down the hill. Last time I went to one of those events things got a bit fraught...
I think the pits area was leased by the Automobile Club de Normandie, which was taken over (before the demolition) by ......... the ACO.

KPY,
I know the work at LM isn't finished yet, so we could all stand to be corrected (although after looking at those aerial pics of the ongoing work, I doubt it), but are we losing something in the translation here?
It seems the ACO do not really have an appreciation of why their race is so popular or what makes it special. It looks from this side of the water as if they are trying to alienate the racing fans and downgrade the spectacle. Or are we missing something? - what's the opinion of the local French fans?
H

Speaking of demolition of landmarks, has Montlhery been flattened now too?  Last I heard it had been closed and was headed for the wrecking ball and bulldozers.  That would be tragic, far more so than Rouen.
Fax

Have to admit to being mystified at the French lack of regard for their motor racing heritage.  I'm a bit of a Francophile, Didier Pironi and Patrick Depailler are among my motor racing Gods, I think Natalie Dessay has one of the most exquisite voices on the planet, and I want Julie Delpy to have my love child.  But erasing great places like the circuits at Rouen, and Montlhery is mind boggling.  This isn't even including the butchering of the circuit of Le Mans and selling Ricard to the Poison Dwarf!
Fax

Fax, what you said about Agostini in the othere thread could be applied equally to the Didier Pironi. Rich mummy and daddy etc. Personally I never really forgave him for Gilles.

Agree completely Andy, both from wealthy families, both very gifted (Francois Cevert another example). Unlike the vast majority of the kiddies with silver spoons stuck in their mouths.
I've always understood there was a lot more to the Imola situation than the Villeneuve biased media reported.  Mark Hughes did a nice job of reviewing things a few years ago in Motor Sport, and Gerald Donaldson of all people and Mauro Forghieri came out in defense of Pironi in a article a couple of years ago as well.  As I've always said, look at the Reuteman-Jones, and Arnoux-Prost situations, which in both, team orders were far more clear cut, in neither case did Carlos or Rene get crucified the way Didier did.  Had Gilles not bought it two weeks later the whole thing would be a non issue today.
Fax

Good points Fax, logically I cannot argue whatsoever. But as i said, "I never really forgave him". I was 18 years old when Gilles died, I totally hero-worshipped him and these things have a habit of leaving a lasting impression for right or wrong.

I worshiped both of them, and has been often pointed out, they were quite close friends until the 1982 San Marino GP.  I have some lovely memories of watching GV racing in the Atlantics against guys like Keke, Bobby Rahal and Tom Gloy.  Some very good memories.
Fax

I wish I was able to have seen Gilles race but I was only 3 when he was killed. I do remember reading in F1 about Peter Windsor's relationship with Gilles and he spoke of Joann warning Gilles not to think he was so clost to Didier. He didn't even send Gilles a wedding invitation! Either way the end result was tragic for motorsport and a great champion was lost.

I'll give you a couple of heads up on some of the things Andy & I brought up. First of all, without being a jerk, you really had to be there and understand the state of the sport at  the time, VERY dangerous (in and out of the cockpit) era.  Advice no.1 Don't believe a single thing Peter Windsor writes, ninety percent of it is complete fabricated bullshit, the pinnacle of it being that utterly bogus article he wrote in F1 about four years ago relating his "Interview with Jim Clark" which would have happened when he was about ten!  Goes on & on about how he met him in a airport lounge and Jim told him about the handling qualities of this & that and how he had to go Indy and test the new turbine car, the whole piece was SO full of sh*t!  I met Francois Cevert and Jackie Stewart when I was that age too, but I'm not for a second going to try to fill anyone full of BS about the details of it, I was pissing down my leg with awe and they signed my program, thats it!  The other Windsor article about the US F1 winners, where he f**k*ng forgot Peter Revson! That was a thing of beauty also.  Windsor was no closer to GV than I was!  They guy who had his head up GV's ass was Nigel Roebuck and he's the one most responsible for DP's vilafication.
Advice no.2 As I said, you had to be there. Anything written by w**k*rs like Windsor, Adam Cooper, Matt Bishop, etc. and the rest of the journalist wannabe's under forty (Windsor is over forty which makes hime even more deplorable) is 99% BS, they weren't there and are writing on what they read in a book...Probably by Roebuck.
Fax

Thats why I read so much of motorsport history to try and learn all about it. I read Roebuck in Motorsport and any other publication I see him in. Include Alan Henry, Gerald Donaldson, Maurice Hamilton, Gordon Kirby and Doug Nye to the list there. I'd have loved to have met Cevert, what a charasmatic guy. I'd place him a VERY close number two to Gurney in my personal list of favorite drivers in history. I do have some sort of perspective on the sport at the time, not from experience mind you but from reading tons of books and mags along with any piece of film I could/can get my hands on. I'm interested to hear your perspective on the state of F1 and motorsport in the late 70's and early 80's. I'm always up for a good racing discussion or story!  :)

If you really want to get a feel for the sport at the time don't rely too much on what your going to read in contemporary publications.  Roebuck and Henry were both barely tolerable in their prime but are clearly bored with the sport today, if you've read Roebuck's book the GP Greats, thats about all you'll get from him worth its weight.  Anything regarding the history of the sport he paste & cuts more or less word for word from that.  Roebuck and Henry also have a annoying habit of being biased to people who they were close to or sucked up to them.  Roebuck was a chronic Senna basher when he was alive but as soon as Senna bought it Roebuck gushed all over him knowing damn well there was going to be good money in the dead Senna industry (PS, I still think Senna the biggest asshole the sports ever seen).  Your best bets are to dig up old copies of Motor Sport, Grand Prix International, and Formula.  Jenks, Jabby Crombac, Jose Rosinski, Henry Manney, Barry Gill and Pete Lyons are the best there has ever been.  You'll be wasting your time with Roebuck & Henry. Hamilton's okay and Joe Scalzo  and Gordon Kirby will give good insight into the Champcar scene of the seventies and eighties.
Fax

That is a great idea! I would love to see that. If you are going to make a shirt, I think we will have some ways of even presenting one of em to Jan himself. We are hoping he will make an appearance at our site this year. Last year he sent over some mechanics. My guess is that they will be coming over for the soccer game on friday night!

soccer?

soccer?

soccer?

soccer?

I take it you mean football  >:( ;D

What's that then  ???

Americans have a different opinion as far as football goes. So yes, soccer, just to keep it clear for our US visitors.

Fax,I'll have to take your word for it that Roebuck actually produced something worth its weight, he was one of the reasons I stopped reading Autosport. I found his columns so sycophantic that they put my teeth on edge, and when he wasn't being sycophantic he was so busy dropping names he lost track of what he was actually writing about. I don't think there was any denying his knowledge of the sport, even though he seemed to think 'the sport' meant F1, but why he didn't translate his knowledge and contacts into passionate articles about why F1 has gone down the tubes I don't know. All in all, I think he has found his level, ie writing a drab weekly column for a publication that's decided it's market is morons who only want to read 'Hello' style articles about F1 and its drivers.
H

Hi H,
Its mostly worth its weight as a beverage coaster!  However for the poor bastard who doesn't know a thing about the history of the sport its a place to start I suppose.  Couldn't agree more with you about Roebuck, the name dropping and putting his two cents in on everything from smoking to the EU gets old fast, and as you said, one of a catalog of reasons I dropped the bird cage liner (Autosport).
Fax

The best thing you can do IMHO is to get hold of magazines written at the time rather than to rely on books written after the event. They are full of info blessed with hindsight and opinon mostly based on info from people who where not there or have a hidden agenda.

I enjoyed reading Joe Saward as well as those Fax has mentioned, I do think Doug Nye has a geniue love of the sport and is quite readable.

That would be fantastic to have a shot at meeting Mr. Lammers, I always rated him highly  :) Yeah and knetter, I call it football and I'm an American so its all good. You say it Voetball correct? I'll bring my boots, but I'll leave my keeper gloves at home, I've since retired  ;)

Every year there are discussions about organising a football match between various groups at Le Mans but for some reason it never seems to happen, can't imagine why?  ::) ::) ::) 

(http://www.potrebitel.co.il/Potrebitel_graphics/Topic/fgh3456cghx.jpg)

Nordic, agreed bout Nye, one of the very best historians of the sport, as you very well put it, no hidden agenda invloved, gives a very honest and straightforward read.  He's fantastic with marque  and chassis history. His book Lotus, The Formula 1, Indy and Tasman Cars is THE definitive volume on the subject.
Fax

I quite like Maurice Hamilton. His commentary on Radio 5 Live is miles better than James "The Cock" Allen, who IMO personifies the "plastic" people involved with the sport just now. I once heard him say "back in the day" when talking about Graham Hill. No honestly, I did! The scruffy twat should at least learn to tuck his f**k*ng shirt in and buy a comb. If I watch F1 (it usually has to be rainning hard or whatever), I turn off the TV sound and listen to the radio commentary.

For some satirical insight into coming season, then I commend this:

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/

Stop the Cock.

The ACO are a bunch of self-important blazered w@nkers. The dealings I've had with them over the years have left me with the impression that only the girls in the booking office, who are superb, are any good at their job. The translations on their site and in their press releases are rubbish, because they choose to use an agency which does not employ native English speakers. They can’t even set up an on-line booking system – they’ve passed at least three deadlines for opening it already, and currently state that it opens last Monday! Their marketing department employs people who, I suspect, would make your Audi PR person seem polite. Several years ago they told me that they would not consider selling a concession to sell ice around the campsites, as there was no call for it. When I said that the risk would be mine I was told that it was people like me who caused trouble for them.
The problem is that the ACO gets large grants from the local authorities on the grounds that they bring tourists, and therefore money into the area.
I’ve spoken to quite a few locals at Le Mans, who live within or close to the circuit. Of course opinions vary, but there’s an element that feels that the influx of large numbers of sober, semi-sober and plain drunk guys, added to the inconvenience and noise is maybe not worth the free tickets handed out by the ACO. Actual French fans come from all over France and you’ll find quite a few like Fab and Bernard B on the 10/10ths forum. Gilles is one of the biggest fans of La Sarthe, Le Mans and the 24 Hours, but, last time I asked he wasn’t an ACO member. I think the general opinion about alterations to the circuit, Village etc. is pretty much universal.

Montlhery has not been demolished. It’s lost its competition license for lack of the cash to repair the surface and strengthen the banking.  See http://asalm.free.fr/ The place is mainly used as a vehicle test and certification centre, and, sadly, visitors are discouraged except on rare Open Days.
I don’t buy the “French don’t care” thing. One point is that racing and rallying on closed roads is a very old French tradition. Circuits used for genuine road and street racing change as those roads and streets change. Some are swallowed up in developments like Reims, some are changed out of all recognition like the 1906 French GP circuit at Le Mans, and some like the 1907-1913 Dieppe and Rouen circuits are still recognisable. We have Historic Grands Prix at Monte Carlo and Pau, the Grand Prix des Remparts at Angouleme, the Grand Prix de l’Age d’Or at Dijon. The Tour de France Auto, the Monte Carlo Rallye Historique, and God knows how many minor events all over France. Bernie may own Le Castellet, but at least it’s still there http://tinyurl.com/njn43 . There’s a new circuit at Clermont Ferrand, and you can have fun looking for the old one. There was to have been a new circuit in Normandy to replace the loss of Rouen, but politics reared an ugly head and Mitterand forced the choice of a new GP circuit to Magny Cours, close to his home base of Nevers. Bah!

Some excellent points made KPY, and if I'm honest with myself I can't say that Americans are any better at protecting our historic racing venues.  After all Riverside Raceway and Ascot Park have both gone the  way of the Dodo bird and been reduced to housing subdivisions and shopping malls.  Very good to see there's still racing at Clermont.  I suppose at the end of the day my frustration comes with seeing the once mighty Circuit de la Sarthe reduced to a Scalextric track in a large sandbox, in other words a formula 1 circuit.
fax

I think we share the same opinions at heart, Fax. The way things are going we'll end up with a sort of giant Bugatti circuit. You'll find Clermont-Ferrand at http://www.charade.fr/ .
By the way I'm a founder member of Les Amis des Circuits d'Antan, an association of guys (girls welcome) interested in seeking out the old road circuits in France, along with a bit of eating and drinking. Membership is open to anyone who's interested. I suppose I'd better get a website going - we started up a few years ago now.

I've read both Autocourse books on GP cars from 1950-1965? Along with the following book from 66-92. Facinating reads with so much tech info its almost unbelievable!
Fax you were discussing US tracks that have fallen by the wayside, I think Winchester or Salem has gone under IIRC? I thought Tony Stewart was looking to help refirbish that facility as well. I can remember when Rich Vogler hustled his Hoffman #69 around both places. The fastest 1/2 miles in the world, truly astonishing. Unfortunately Salem is where Rich met his maker while leading....As far as Le Sarthe getting homogonized, where do you draw that line between a classical feel of the circuit of old and still keep it safe for cars today? Anyone?

No, Winchester and Salem are both still alive and kicking. In fact planning on going the April Winchester round for the USAC Sprints.  Stewart purchased the Eldora Speedway last year and sunk a pile of money into it.  All are very historic old venues where the legends of Indycar racing cut their teeth going all the way back to Bill Vukovich, Troy Ruttman, Roger Ward, and Jimmy Bryan through the more recent legends of Foyt, Rutherford (Eldora is where Johnny was so badly injured in the sixties) and Mario, up to todays stars like Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart.
As far as Le Mans? They crossed over the line a long time ago.
Fax

Ah good to hear about the high banks in Indiana...But my question is what changes were made to the track that made it lose it's (my words) 'soul'? the one major one I think is putting the chicanes on the Mulsanne. Maison Blanche was a dauntingly fast and dangerous part of the circuit too. So where does one make the judgement, 'hey we've got to make safety improvements but not here because the circuit's integredy will be lost...'? Examples please from anyone, I'm interested.  :)

Jonny, thanks quite a challenging question.

Some would say the circuit lost it's character when they scrapped the long run up to the hairpin at Pont Lieue!  Or when they removed the hay bales from the sides and put up Armco.

I personally feel some of the more recent changes at corners have been ill-conceived, with acres of gravel run-offs and high fencing.
However (Mulsanne chicanes aside) the majority of that work centres around parts of the classic circuit that are incorporated within the Bugatti.

The right hander at Arnage Corner still has little or no run offs and protection and the whole route from Mulsanne Corner to the Porsche Curves is still bounded by nice grass verges and sees high speeds.
No real changes have been made to this section before or since the flying Mercs of 1999

Regarding the Mulsanne chicanes, the N138 has seen a fair amount of development as a public road, there are now roadabouts at intersections with cross roads and retail areas have been built quite close to the edge of the road.  My guess is the chicanes were put in, as well as to limit the top speed of the cars, to prevent any nasty incidents to the buildings and properties along the route.

Its worth remembering that Le Mans has had more than its fair share of tragic accidents to both the public and drivers.

Which this in mind one could forgive the ACO for being a bit more cautious and maybe over protection at some sections of the track where the public have access. The high fences where there on the start straight and elsewhere in 1980 for my first vist then where removed for about 5 years before being replaced by more sturdy type. While I accept no fence is going to prevent a car going into the tribunes, it may hold back some debris some it could be argued they is a place for them.

As for changing the layout, as Steve B has already said, the track has seen so many changes it would be hard to pinpoint the perfect layout.

Some of the changes have led to problems elsewhere, for example, before the chicanes where added, all cars ran a low downforce setup. This restricted there performance on the twisty sections of the track and kept the speeds down.
After the chicanes where introduced cars ran higher downforce and the rest of the track speeded up.

My favorite section of the track used to be the esses and the dunlop curve. Both of these have now gone at the behest of the MotoGP riders who seem to have forgotten they can use the brakes. We now have a tighter Dunlop chicane that I think will lead to more crashes and the esses have been replaced by a souless set of sweeps that on any other track would be good but are no where near as good as before on this grand track.

Er, not so. Vast roadworks were carried out a few years ago to remove the "hump" and prevent  the aerobatics.

The Mulsanne hump yes, but has there been any changes to the Indianannopolis take off area as in my post regarding the section between Mulsanne Corner and Porsche curves?

Steve - sorry my error, your picture of Webber had me think you meant that bit. I think you'll find they've flattened the corresponding hump before Indianapolis (part of one long ridge), too. Also a vast run-off area has been built before the following right hander and the spectators' view of cars approaching the Arnage viewing area is blocked off for ever.
The chicanes were inserted on the Mulsanne in order to comply with FIA regulations about length of straights, so as to keep the circuit's license. They destroyed the challenge of the kink. Ask Henri Pescarolo what he thinks of the Mulsanne these days - he'll tell you that they've removed the soul from Le Mans.
Mulsanne corner was ruined when they put the roundabout in and by-passed it for the race, easing the angle of the corner.
Tertre Rouge is being messed up right now, Dunlop is being screwed up even more than before. The new section after Dunlop allows better viewing of the cars in a corner, but wrecks the classic approach to the Esses - the spectator area on the inside of the entry to the Esses is long gone.
Only Arnage and the Esses resemble the circuit I remember from the '60s.
Really it was the building of the Bugatti circuit which allowed the ACO to mess around as they liked - they hold all those meetings throughout the year, including two 'bike Internationals. That brings in cash.
The new pits and paddock were no doubt necessary, but it was such fun to stand on the balcony above the pits at night and watch the cars being worked on, right into the '80s.
We can never reconstruct the past, and none of us wants to see another driver killed, but the ACO is doing its best to turn the 24 Hours circuit into something like a modern GP track with lack of consideration for the paying public included  :(.
 

Morning Chaps,
IMO the best era for the circuit layout was the mid 80's.
The Porsche curves were a challenging replacement for the dangerous Maison Blanche.
The world famous Mulsanne and it's kink was just fabulous, challenging for the designers, tacticians and drivers. One of my most enduring memories of the race is standing behind the armco at the kink in the dark and watching Schumacher steer the merc through absolutely flat out, with the rear end right on the edge of traction, lap after lap. I know there was a safety issue with the straight KPY, but I seem to remember that the particular safety issue in question was politically generated in a spat between FIA and J-M Bastardo.
The section from the top of the pit straight to the Esses is just a joke now, I can't think of anything in it's favour, from either a spectator or a drivers viewpoint. I'd love to discuss it's merits with the ACO. Arnage still survives, but the spectators have been pushed back a long way, and as you say, there is no longer any access to Indianapolis (and didn't they change the superelevation of the track as well?), which is a high speed approach. I believe it's the fastest part of the track these days and the spectators aren't allowed on the corner or near the braking points???
Until now, a good spot to spectate was just outside the track at Tetre Rouge, watching the drivers set the cars up for the corner and then get on the power for the staright, but it sounds like that opportunity is gone.
Let's face it, it's not a spectator friendly race.
H

Morning All,
You guys seem to have pretty well it on the screws with your responses to Johnny question.  For a sporting venue to have "soul" it needs two essential ingredients, history and something distinct that separates from just another venue.  The Sarthe circut had that both in spades for decades.  However over the fifteen years or sp the ACO have done everything in their power to destroy that essential character.  The circut used to require a very unique, high speed, low drag setup, one which was seen nowhere else the rest of the year.  With the addition of the Dunlop and Mulsanne chicanes its become just another point & squirt type of track.  Over the years the ACO have also seen fit to demolish any of the landmarks that maintain links with the past.  Many of the charismatic old tribunes and vantage points are now gone, resigned to memory.  They replaced the legendary old pit buildings in 1991 with a steel & glass complex that is both ugly and soulless, don't understand why they didn't do what was done at Sebring and replace the old structure with a new one that looks like the old one.  As I said, its all about tradition and continuity.
And has been well documented, the spectating has gone to hell.  It was dreadful spectating when I first went in 1996 and it was far worse last time I went in '02.
Fax

Yes indeed, and I'm no fan of the current Mulsanne. The chicanes were installed as a result of blackmail.
I agree with all that. I used to love watching at the limit of the spectator area at the entrance to Tetre Rouge, particularly in PQ, and the Esses were my favourite spot of all. The view up the track from the Arnage enclosure to see the cars approaching at high speed and braking for the right-hander was something else. Yup, they changed the superelevation of the track there as well.
As for your discussions with the ACO - I'd love to be there, but they are not good listeners.
Take me back to the early '80s !!!

I'm afraid it's easy to explain. The fonctionnaires of the ACO have a very high self/spectator importance ratio. The steel and glass thingy represents them to a T. Bunch of tossers, to use a technical term.

Wot, without corporate hospitality opportunities.

This world is run by two people.  Mr Health and Safety, and Mr Corporate Hospitality, and the rest of us can go hang.

I still think they could have incorporated poser boxes into a complex that had the look and feel of the old one.  Sebring has boxes up there.

I remember when they tore down the old pit complex at Monza and replaced it with a similarly hideous structure, Jenks described it as an act of "pre-meditated vandalism".
Fax

JS,
The Indiana & Ohio (Eldora's in Rossberg, OH) highbanks were, and still are fearsome places.
I was at Winchester in July of '94 when Robbie Stanley checked out, again in a Gus & Dick Hoffman car.
Fax

Some good points raised regarding the Le Mans circuit.

Having read them all, I can't for the life of me think why I am bothering to go this year.

1. The tracks sh**t now.
2. You can't see any cars.
3. It will be either be too bloody hot or a f**cking monsoon will hit.
4. The French don't like us anyway and piss in all the beer before selling it.
5. The works Audi team are back.............with a desiel.
6. I hate camping.

Think i will stay at home and mow the lawn instead.

Nordic ...... go to Sebring instead.

You know it makes sense.

You're right. But facilities have improved immeasurably over the years. Don't forget years ago, there were several aspects of Le Mans that were sh*t in other ways:

1. No toilets.
2. The toilets bloody stunk to high heaven and constituted a serious health risk.
3. No toilet paper.
4. Noel Edmonds (one year).
5. A horrible funfair with nasty strippers, a wall of death and a boxing booth.
6. Tom Walkinshaw.
7. Erm...????

Not exactly a bed of roses was it.

Thanks to Mr Zarse I have changed my mind. The point about the wonderful loos has swung it.

As for Sebring, it does make sense and I will make the trip one year before it goes the same way as Le Mans or worse like Riverside.

http://www.bakerracingpix.com/RIRTower.jpg

I think Sebring is pretty safe Nordic.  For years during the early seventies they kept saying each year would be the last one, but now that its fully privately owned and a fulltime racing circuit, its secure.  Besides what the hell else would you do with a big flat patch of scrub land in the middle of nowhere Florida? Put an amusement park there ;D
Fax

Don't tempt fate!  Would you want to visit SebringWorld and take a ride on the ALMS Experience?

Oh I'm very familiar with Eldora, I'm a huge WoO fan. I'd been going to Knoxville from 98-'04 but missed last year since I've been away at school grrr. Hope to make it back this year!

I'm not so much of a Outlaws fan, a little more Old School, sprinters shouldn't have wings.
Fax