Club Arnage

Its official.  Rubens is heading off to BAR with Massa filling the No 2 spot at the scuderia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/default.stm

I am not sure if this link will work,but here goes.

http://www.big-boys.com/pictures/picture1330.html

So basically they're replacing one wealthy Brazilian kid with another...
Fax

Just bizarre.  Obviuosly no one else wants to play second fiddle, can't see Ferrari going for the constructors championship next year with this line up. 

Not a bad gig if you can be content being Schumacher's personal whipping boy.  If you see yourself as a contender for the title, your screwed.  I never thought Irvine or Rubens were anything more than journeyman drivers, maybe Ferrari see's this as the way to go
Fax

One more promising career down the old craperroo.

Can anyone name me a single driver who has been the teammate of The German Fellow whose career hasn't ended up with an asteristk beside it?  Massa must either have been blinded by the dollar signs or yet another naive baby who fell for the old "of course you'll have equal equipment and opportunity ... "

I don't know Kate, I've never seen anything in Massa that screams World Champion.  Look on the bright side though, we'll still get to watch Barrichello burst into tears every five minutes at BAR. Good grief, has there ever been a driver who weeps as much as this guy.  Grow some balls, figure skaters cry, not racing drivers....Jeez :'(
Fax

Unless they're flaming puppets of death!

I am now convinced either Kate is Fax's gender reassignment personality, or they need to have "I hate Schumacher" in their wedding vows...

Ideally suited for one another

Martin Brundle is, I believe, the only team mate who didn't stand up for any $hit or did actually give Herr Schumacher a run for his money.  Look how Patrese was destroyed by Schumacher after they booted Brundle out ::)   Schumacher was/is great pals with Brundle.  Having said that, this was all before Schumacher got all God-like and was able to call the shots.

Agreed, Martin (I was as fast as Senna in F3) Brundle has probably given the best account of any of Schue-boy's team mates and as you accurately pointed out, at Ferrari its been his way or the highway. Look at how Benetton went into the crapper when he, Ross Brawn and Rory Bryne bailed to Ferrari.  For my money Rory Byrne should get as much credit as anyone for Ferrari's success in recent years.
Fax

If you want to see Johnny Herbert's ears turn red and his eyes glitter with steel, just slip up beside him and murmur "Michael Schumacher".   ;D

Somebody remind me who the driver was that Senna vetoed (who would have been competitive with him) and whom they took on in that driver's place, who was, er, Massa light....

P.S. For real crybaby stuff, Helio Castroneves takes the prize.  Brazilians are just naturally emotional guys, I think.

Oh Kate!
Derek Warrick got booted out of a 1986 JPS Lotus drive by Senna, and Johnny Dumfries got the ride, and promptly did absolutely nothing with it.
Fax

Fax, F1 relies on the whole team doing there bit, from the guys who do the refuelling to the ladies in the factory making the parts.  I can't imagine anyone is naive enough to think Ferrari success is down to one man.

If it is then that is Luca; who actually brought them together.  Mind you when the chips are down Mr Schumacher can always be relied upon to wring every ounce of performance out of the car, don't see many of his fellow drivers doing the same.

To be fair to Senna, at the time Lotus where hardly able to put together 1 car that could last a GP, try to run 2 top line drivers would have been beyond them, Senna knew that and blocked Warwick, I don't belive the Lotus mangement at the time fought very hard to get Warwick.

Not to sure how Warwick would of faired anyway, apart from his Toleman drives he never set the track alight in F1, his time at Renault was spoit by a poor car, but the best drivers always make a poor car better, right ?but did quite well in Jags and Pug's.

Hmm, I don't necessarily agree with that Nordic regarding Lotus ability to prepare cars. In 1985 Ayrton and Elio were pretty evenly matched, with well prepared equipment under the supervision of Bob Dance. DNF's usually resulting from Renault engine failures (one of the them resulting in a huge shunt for Senna at Ricard) or running out of fuel.  I think Senna's veto of Warrick just a case of asserting his authority within the team.
Spider, that was the point I was making with my remark about Rory Byrne, I've always felt Schumacher gets a dis-proportionate amount of credit for Ferrari's recent success.
Fax

Senna was asserting his authority within Lotus when he got them to pass up Warwick, But one of the reasons was the retirements that both he and Elio had suffered from daft problems associated with preparation, both from Lotus and Renault, hence his wish for them to focus on one car, his.

7 DNF 's out of 16 for senna compared to the 3 DNF's for Elio may have convinced him that Lotus prepared one car better than two. His ego would never let him admit that he may have had a hand in those DNF's I suspect

Once he left lotus the team did seem to fall apart, Nelson P was passed his best when he arrived and once he was gone the the writing was on the wall I felt.

What did you think of Warwick? he always seemed to be in the right team, but at the wrong time, but was then not able to drive the team in the right direction. I admit at Renault that may have been almost impossible, but Brabham with the lay down engine there did seem to be some potential that he was never able to unlock.

Fax, i was agreeing with you too.  I might have a couple of the beasts but it doesn't make me love Mr Schumacher come what may.  Most of them are flawed, it would be a boring world if they were all perfect, they might all be like Kimi.  Mr no personality.

Nordic & Spider,
Agree with you guys on both last postings.  As far as Warrick?  I thought after the 1980 F2 season that he was going to be something special but it never really translated to success in F1.  There  were a few occasions in 1982 when he had the Belgrano going alot faster than it should have but that in a way kind of sums up his career, flashes of brilliance but just couldn't seem to put it all together.  Always seemed like a good bloke though, which goes a long way in my book and had some nice success in sportscar with TWR & Pug.
Fax

Got me thinking about that '85 season and how good of a year that was.  The battle between Keke and Nelson at Ricard was exciting as hell with the two of them slipstreaming back and forth down the Mistral and Keke's pole lap at Silverstone is still after twenty years a thing of beauty.  And how about the battle between Prost and Lauda in the last GP at Zandvort.
I thought Silverstone was really the story of the season wrapped up in one race, Senna would take off like a scalded cat from pole, run up a big lead but by the last third of the race he was out of fuel, out of brakes, tires shot and a red & white McLaren looming in his mirrors.
Fax

For some light hearted relief

German GP

James Allan: “The braking point seems to be the problem; (Karthikeyan)’s just not getting the car slowed down to the right speed, is he?”

Martin Brundle: “No – a bit of a pivotal job when you arrive at a corner. It can’t be surprising him – [the corners] are all in the same place as when he first went round the track.”

Very nice Spider, some good Friday humor.  Over here on Speedchannel we have Bob Varsha, David Hobbs and Steve Matchett.  Varsha's good, Matchett superb and Hobbs is...well he's Hobbs.  I need to correct my last post, at Silverstone Keke was on pole of course, not Ayrton but if my memory is correct (which is getting dodgy with each passing year) Senna started alongside Keke and led most of the race before being caught by Messr Prost.
Fax

Fax, quick write up on the 85 British GP

65 Laps, 4.719
The big rumor at the British GP was that Renault was planning to close its factory team at the end of the 1985 season. The Silverstone entry was the same as it had been at the French GP a fortnight earlier, where Nelson Piquet had given Brabham-BMW (and Pirelli) a much-needed victory. Piquet was very competitive again at Silverstone and set the second fastest time in qualifying for the British GP although Keke Rosberg had everyone talking with the first 160mph lap of the track. Alain Prost (McLaren-TAG) was third fastest ahead of Ayrton Senna (Lotus-Renault) and Nigel Mansell (Williams-Honda). The top 10 was completed by World Championship leader Michele Alboreto (Ferrari), Andrea de Cesaris (Ligier-Renault), Elio de Angelis (Lotus-Renault), Teo Fabi (Toleman-Hart) and Niki Lauda (McLaren-TAG).

At the start Senna made a great start and took the lead from Rosberg, Mansell, Prost and de Cesaris. Piquet was only sixth. There was an accident at the first corner when Patrick Tambay (Renault) got sideways and was hit by Stefan Johansson's Ferrari. The crash also resulted in a collision between Piercarlo Ghinzani (Osella) and Philippe Alliot (RAM). In the early laps it was de Cesaris who was showing best, passing Prost and then Mansell. The Williams soon fell behind Prost as well and on the ninth lap Prost retook third place. Soon afterwards de Angelis retired from sixth place with electrical trouble and on lap 17 Mansell dropped off the pace with clutch trouble. He would retire soon afterwards. Four laps later Rosberg's race ended with a turbo failure.

All this left Senna ahead but with Prost closing while Lauda had moved to third ahead of de Cesaris and Piquet but the Brabham was under attack from Alboreto and would soon lose the position. Things remained stable until de Cesaris disappeared with clutch failure on lap 42. By then Senna and Prost were running nose-to-tail, fighting it out for the lead. The battle continued until 12 laps from the finish when Senna's engine began to behave oddly. The battle went on while Lauda went out with an electronic problem, allowing Alboreto to move to third. On lap 58, however, Prost went into the lead. Senna fought back and retook the lead but Prost responded and moved ahead again. And then Senna dropped away and retired, having run out of fuel. The chequered flag was shown a lap early with Prost winning, Alboreto second and Jacques Laffite third, having overtaken Piquet with a few laps to go. After the flag Laffite ran out of fuel which annoyed Piquet who would have had an extra point if the flag had been shown at the right point. Derek Warwick (Renault) ended up fifth with the final point going to Marc Surer (Brabham) sixth

Have only ever been to one practice at a grand prix and it was the 85 at Silverstone.
The commentator was waffling on when the other one broke in to say "Keke's on a quick one" There was a light sprinkling of rain, and keke crossed the line slightly oversteering with one tyre on the grass. Post practice interview, he stood there with his cig going telling how he had a slow puncture as well :o

Yep Rhino, as one journalist famously said,"The sound of big brass ones clanging together usually heralded Keke's arrival".
Senna was fourth on the grid? Wow, that didn't happen very often. During his era you just automatically assumed he was on the front row if not on pole.
Fax

Now, does reading and writing all that about the good old days before everyone was handed his post-race thoughts on index cards typed up and run past the censors ... make anyone think that today's F1 is more than a pale shadow of what we used to have?

I think once Ferrari gets rid of That German Fellow, F1 will become just like hockey became when Bobby Orr retired -- suddenly everyone will have to start actually stepping up, instead of bowing the Red Car past.

And I devoutly hope that I will never again hear Peter Windsor ask a young up-and-coming World Champion To Be, "Did you ever think of [throwing the race to Schumacher] and settling for Second?" with a straight face -- although Alonso's expression was priceless, compared to his reasonably response!   ;D

I like to read and talk about the old days simply because they were better than the steaming crap they call F1 now.
The cars are boring, the circuts are boring and the drivers are boring. Its marketed to the stick & ball crowd now.  Maybe all F1 fans should just shave their heads and turn into a walking Vodaphone advert.
Fax

Are there enough of them left to spell "Vodafone"?   ;D

I'm reading James Hunt's Bio that Gerry Donaldon wrote, and enjoying James' ascerbic comments when he worked with Murray Walker; and imagining Jacques doing the same service in livening up James Allen's woeful commentary. 

"In James' view, Alessandro Nannini lacked brainpower behind the wheel, Mauricio Gugelmin was slow in all the lesser formulas, even slower in Formua 1 and ahd no reason to be there; Rene Arnoux was a menace to other drivers, Andrea de Cesaris was an embarrassment to himself, his team and the sport; Alain Prost's motivation was suspect; Nigel Mansell (the next English World Champion after James) made silly mistakes,d efamed the office of World Champion by not staying in Formula 1 to defend his title; and so on."

Now imagine what Jacques would say about the current field!

Kate,
Donaldson's bio of James is probably one of the top two motor racing bios ever written, the other of course being his bio of GV.  As Donaldson writes, both were flawed (read...human) but brilliant men.  The bio of James is both at times very hillarious and deeply sad.  The hillarious?  Read about the time he hugely shunted a Formula Ford at Brands and one of his friends ran to the scene expecting the worse to find James furiously punching the starter button shouting "f**k*ng thing won't start, f**k*ng thing won't start"...took some time to settle him down and explain to him the reason it wouldn't start was because the engine was on the other side of the track.  The sad?  His role in Ronnie Peterson's fatal accident at Monza...
Peter Warr and Jane Birbeck's describing how James came to the Wolf motohome, ashen and hands shaking.
How James saw the terror in Ronnie's eyes.
Brilliant read for anyone who's never read it before.
Fax 

Sounds like a great read. Any idea who the publsher is please I can't find it on Amazon.

It's next to the white stick Bob.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753507358/qid=1123668980/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/202-9181238-7839048

(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0753507358.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

Yeh, found it, was searching with Gerry and not Gerald.

This is how it used to be done, by the master himself Mr G Villeneuve. The Murray Walker commentary is a bit subdued compared to his later offerings but it was probably done from a studio in London as the Beeb wouldn't pay to let him go abroad. It's a crap quality clip but when did we last see this sort of racing in F1?

http://www.globalserve.net/~trauttf/Gilles/Dijon79.mpeg

One of the finest pieces of racing footage ever.  I particularly love the way GV did not drive down the inside of the straight, almost daring Arnoux to try to out brake the very last of the late breakers !  :D

Probably not possible today with car with no flexibility of handling whatsoever.  Slightest twitch and you have to catch it instantly or you're in the barriers.  ::)

Bring back slicks and ban all but a single plane front a rear wing.

Andy, most excellent what a ding dong, would that have been Rene Arnooo as Murray says driving the Renault?  Turbo cars as well ?

Who knows with the rule changes coming up we could very see that sort of driving again.

Ah the good old days. I doubt very much we will ever see F1 racing as good as this again.

Ah the good old days. I doubt very much we will ever see F1 racing as good as this again.

I fear you are right on that score Bob. Perhaps the FIA should take a close look at the aerodynamic profiles of these cars and compare them with todays. Until such time as the aerodynamics of the cars are changed drastically the racing will continue to be no-existant

Great clip there Andy, I have that whole race on VHS.
What set the whole race up was the start GV made, rocketing from the second row into the lead and Rene nearly stalling his Renault at the start.  It took Jabouille a long to time to catch and pass Gilles and Rene had to scyth through the field, breaking the lap record over & over again to get back to Gilles.  Caught and passed him with a couple of laps to go but just then Rene's Renault turbo began to suffer from fuel pick-up problems, and we the fans were the ones to benefit.  Rene stayed within striking distance and Gilles on spent tires went for it!
Fax

I don't think there are two drivers in F1 now that would not force the other onto the grass in the same situation.

The cars back then where clearly more driveable and gave the driver more options when racing wheel to wheel.

Agreed 100%. My bitching about contemporary F1 is not really with the drivers (other than them becoming corporate stooges) but moreover with the highly technical, highly boring machinery. Also the administrators such as Bernie and Max are a disgrace. What in God's name have the Chinese and Turkish races got to do with Grand Prix racing other than marketing exercises? As spectacle and a sport it has suffered greatly.

Just thinking about the chinese side of the house, i don't think they have the same smoking advertising restrictions we do in the EU.  Not sure if all the teams are totally ditching their tobacco connections.

The James Hunt book is excellent, and a very deep analysis of James that I wonder if he could have done if James were still alive to criticize it (although I suspect he would have approved).  I understand from later analysis that James was manic-depressive, at least in his later years; was that verified, does anyone know?

My favourite James quote of all time was during a race in Monaco when Murray exclaimed that someone was "on fire as he came into the Swimming Pool" and James replied, "Well, that will put him out, then."   ;D

I will start reading the autobiography of Nigel "It's All About Me" Mansell next.

----------------

As for whether and whither F1, I think it now suffers (besides from the Ron Dennis School of RoboSpeak) from the same problem that happened in hockey -- and I believe Sir Jackie Stewart pointed it out in F1, actually: that as the cars have become safer and safer, the drivers have become more dangerous.  Now that they are virtually assured to walk away from any prang, they don't hesitate to ram other cars or force them into the curb, gravel traps, et al.  regardless of consequences.  I remember Eddie Irvine in the Jaguar forcing Bernoldi into the tire wall at a very high rate of speed, and then parking and piling out of his car to run and help pull the tire wall off the Prost and rescue the other driver; he was quite shaken up by the result of his action when he thought he had killed a fellow driver, but clearly he hadn't considered the effect of his action until he saw it.

On the other hand we have the delightful spectacle of Jean Alesi chasing Jarno Trulli through the infield in Montreal -- Trulli running backward because he was afraid to stop and turn around -- with Alesi shouting "I WEEL KEEL YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!" after Trulli saw him off, which was a delightful echo of the days when drivers could be told apart without consulting the program.

Yes Kate, from what I understand James suffered quite severely from depression in his later years.  Decades of boozing, dope smoking and packing his nose can't have done much for his emotional state.  I don't think I could stomach anything written by the Drama Queen Mansell.
That guy makes me want to puke everytime I see him
He wore his welcome out over here so fast it was mind-boggling.  That guy pissed & moaned more than any group of fifteen year girls you've ever met. :P
The blame for the conduct of racing drivers today can be laid on one person....Senna!  The FIA let him get away with all his bullshit and the standard of driving has plummeted ever since.
Fax

A wonderful quote Kate.

Fax, Mansell was well known for his wingeing over here too.  I remember when he was the 'guest star driver' at a BTCC event and had a "slight coming together" with Tiff Needell.  Although some of the blame may have been Tiffs, Mansell was equally at fault but made sure he made his point, in no uncertain terms, to Needell.

Great to see real men driving real cars on a real mans circuit and actually racing .
Even Schumacher squealed like a girl proclaiming how dangerous the 80's ferrari turbo was after having 'driven' one, the f**k*ng poof.

Rusty

True Rusty.  I doubt we'll be seeing old Spoon Face driving a 80's turboed F1 car up the hill at Goodwood in the near future  ::)

Very true Rusty.  I seem to remeber the tv coverage of that event, if memory serves me, he only did about three laps, bought the car back early and said very interesting but not for me.

No doubt guys, the ground effects and turbo cars were something else.  No traction control, auto gearboxes or any else of that bull-crap.  The traction control was in your right foot!  Steve, agreed about Mansell, you want see a bunch of guys roll their eyes in disgust, mention Mansell's name to some Newman-Haas crewmen who were there when he was.  The guy flat out refused to do any testing (but found plenty of time to play golf), leaving it all to Mario, but would then bitch & complain about everything with the car.  They were glad to see his ass heading out the door.  Never figured him out.  He had it all, was payed millions to do what he loved doing, had a loving wife & family, an adoring nation, but all he ever did was sit around and piss & moan about how horribly he was treated....Just shut the f**k up you twat!
Fax

Thanks - Marvellous to watch that clip again remember the race well first time round- made my morning.   


They certainly were - F1 now may be "cutting edge" technology stuff, but talk about a completely restrictive formula (which is why they all look and sound much the same).   One of the biggest joys of the turbo era was the sheer variety - where now would you get such a fantastic mix of 4-pot turbos, V8s, V12s and flat 12s all running in the same "formula", in the same race.   The early turbo era days made for bags of interest, knowing that the Renaults were faster, but more fragile, then as they became reliable and fast, more manufacturers switched, until they were just about all running turbos and we had the entertainment of the "boost button" without accurate fuel read outs.   Another of the biggest joys of F1 in the 70s and 80s was watching cars that had been built to a formula that had plenty of room for imagination to be exercised - more and more aerodynamic grip, 6-wheeler Tyrells, twin chassis Lotus, Bernie's "Cooling Fan" Brabham etc etc.   Oh, and drivers who were real people too, with the likes of the classic line from Nelson Picquet who, after a long streak of winning, followed by an equally long streak without a podium, won a race and, before the first question could be fired by the journalists at the post-race press conference he came out with "I am Nelson Picquet - remember me?".   In similar circumstances (and I can't remember who it was) a driver came out with "and I dedicate this victory to me".   Small wonder that my interest in F1 waned a long time ago..........

MG Mark

Oh, and if anyone is wondering why the turbo cars were so powerful with a poxy little 4-pot 1500cc block, that was because running the turbos at 4 bar boost gave the volumetric equivalent of a 24-litre engine - that's how you got 1300+bhp out of 1500cc.....no wonder that they grenaded spectacularly when there was a sub-optimal inteface between internal moving components.....

MG Mark

Well it's not quite all the same formula but I seem to recall there being a good mix at least one race this year. There were V12, V10, V8, V6, 4-pot turbocharged & flat 6 boxer engines & all on the same track at the same time...I still think the Panoz sounds the best!! ;D

I remember seeing that; he drove Patrick Tambay's car and Tambay was there laughing at him and saying "You kids don't know what real racing was like."

The German Fellow also refuses to consider racing at Indianapolis or in a World Rally Car -- "too dangerous!" -- although he did race in the ROC and was man enough to be embarrassed when they disqualified both men who beat him so he could "win".

I remember that as well.  Patrick had the boost set quite low as I remember because he was afraid that if they took it to its full four bar it would scatter and he'd never be able to afford the rebuild.  No doubt about it, the Ferrari 126 turbos were cars for men not boys.
Fax

Is this possible?

Kimi has signed to join Ferrari and partner Schuey?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4187690.stm

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=33865

Very nice pic, FS! (http://smile.smilies.nl/696.gif)

Without a doubt  ;)

Speaking of which, a nice view of the river Cuckmere and its many meanders.....

As for Kimi and Shumi swapping seats, it could happen. But as Shumi is getting near his sell by date and it would mean he teamed up with arch enemy JM, I can't see what McLaren would get out of it apart from a load of grief.

Nordic, the news story is about Kimi going to Ferrari in 2007.  Apparently Kimi has already signed a preliminary agreement with Ferrari in May this year.

Could be interesting, or is just the usual summer silly season :o

I thought I read on tele text that they where going to swap, i guess thats old news now!

No smoke without fire, as they say. But it could be a stance to upp his fee

From Kimi's point of view it may make sense. Ferrari have shown that they focus on 1 driver. At present he has to share No1 status with JPM and they (or rather Marlboro) are prepared to pay BIG bucks to the driver.

Could all hinge on how confident one is that Ferrari will have a winning car again by 07.

yes your right, the original story was about schumy going to Mclarean, it s now been turned around,  Schuey has already indicated that he intends to carry on driving past his current contract but i guess that will depend on if the team remains intact or not.  The key players have been at Ferrari a long time now and must be getting exhausted from all the hard work they are doing over the last 10 years.  so maybe its time for a change, probably not a good idea to move to them.  If you remeber Button's name has also linked to a move to the prancing horse.

It will all come out in the wash, so it is said.