Club Arnage

Watching the USA Formula 1 race on TV. Watching Dougal on the Magic Roundabout would be more interesting than this race.

What a total f*** up. This will be in the press for a long time.

You're not wrong there, Nopanic.
I was forced by circumstance to watch a lot of motorsport on TV this weekend. Speed's coverage of Le Mans was less than informative (re lap times and differences) - but still presented what was a gripping race and a fantastic event. F1, by contrast, was a cluster-f**k.
I don't blame the drivers/teams, even though, in the eyes of many Americans used to seeing cars running the other way at the 'yard, they've just whussed the f**k out - or Michelin even. Indianapolis is the wrong venue for an F1 race.
F1 is DEAD in this country, as of today. It will never recover from this. The USA is the biggest and most receptive motorsport market on the planet and they've managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The words piss-up and brewery spring to mind. Who cares - it's sh*t anyway - and is destined to be even worse next season, if that's possible.
 
 

I agree.  An utter farce.  Michelin deserve to suffer massively.

He,He.....
I'm just utterly speechless, what a colossal cluster f**k!
I were there, no mention of the impending stupidity over the PA, just Tom Carnagie babling on about when Jimmy Bryan won the Indy 500 in 1958.  The only way we knew anything was going pear shaped before the start was when people became hysterical on cell phones.  F1 has just absolutely f**ked themselves up the ass as far as F1 in the US in concerned.  They were trying to get a second GP in Vegas next year?  They'll be lucky if they can get single GP in BuFu Oklahoma!  Beer can tossing and chants of REFUND! became the order of the afternoon.  If my tickets weren't  freebies, Id be seriously hacked off.. come to think of it, I'm still pissed off, I wasted an afternoon that would have been better spent cleaning the toilet.
There are F1 fans out there, you know who you are....
Take your grooved tires & sawdust throwing pile of sh*t and keep it!
Fax
 

I find it ironic that I jumped on the Triumph yesterday and rode down to the Speedway, paid $20 to get in (and sit anywhere), parked my bike inside the track for free, saw 1 hour of qualifying and buggered off back home and yet saw considerably more than 300,000 did today.

I think back to the times I've dropped $10K in suite tickets for the weekend at previous F1s - I would have been considerably pissed if I'd done that this year.  Needless to say the mood here in Indy is not good.

I have'nt seen the race as I was in the way back from LM, not good by the sounds of things.

I do however take exception to the comments of our American friends babbling on about F1 in the manner they are doing  when they themselves count as entertainment cars going around in a circle for 500 miles at a time.....big wow.....where is the skill in that.

F1 has done itself no favours, but it does not merit the coments on this post.

The other thing our American friends need to understand is that there is a whole world outside of the good old US of A and that contrary to popular American propaganda the world does not revolve around them.

Jem

Keep your wig on Jem - nobody said the world revolves around the US (even though it does) - and I'm English.
What I said was that the US isthe largest and most receptive consumer of motorsport and that is undeniable. For F1 to screw up in such a spectacular fashion whilst trying it's hardest to sell it to the North American market is ridiculous. Your snipe at NASCAR is unneccessary and not in the slightest bit relevant.
Check out the class victors at Le Mans this year LMP1. GT1, GT2 - American teams at the pinnacle of the sport, so get real.
I stand by my comments, Formula One (or Formula None, as it is now referred to here) is finished here - it's over. That might not bother you Jem, but I suspect that Bernie and his sponsors might be a little pissed-off about it.  

Fully agree with the grim comments. For the money the spectator has to pay to sit behind a high fence and miles away from the circuit he can expect a full grid and interesting racing. If F1 can't deliver that for whatever reason then they lost it. I hope this will break Mr. Ecclestone's neck.

I'm just rather glad that I spent my spectating money on Le Mans as usual. ;D   I still love it that around half the cost of an F1 Silverstone ticket gets you an entire fortnight's build-up, 8 hrs of qualifying, an hours free practice, and a 24 hour race, complete with 50 cars on the grid. ;D   I hear that Autosport coverage on Le Mans in this week's edition will run to 10 pages plus a few other bits - should make a nice read, particularly compared to the F1 report which, given that there were all of 6 cars "racing", will probably be offset reporting of the FIA/Bernie/teams political bo**oxing around.  

Remember that it was Michelin and Mercedes between them who, unable to determine the cause of the high-speed tyre failure on the Sauber Mercedes down the Mulsanne in practice for the 1989 race led to the immediate withdrawal of the Mercedes team from the race.   What would Bernie et al rather Michelin had done in the circumstances?   Said nothing and watch a bundle of cars have serious accidents?   Just seems a shame that, with solutions to hand of insering a chicane, or running different rubber, they chose the route that they did and understandably pi**ed off all US and many other race fans.  

And as for any one who thinks that the 500-mile oval races are a breeze, find out more about the technology, the strategy, the circuits (which aren't truly geometric ovals).   Think on - there's plenty of skill there - it's just a bit different from other forms of the sport.

Thye said on Five Live last night that the oval races are usually postponed until the next day if it rains. Is that true?

Yes it is Jeff - I don't like that either, having been the victim of 2 rain-out's at Indianapolis. The mitigating factor is the concrete wall of course (i.e. there are no run-offs or gravel traps on a banked track)
I'm not sure what would have happened for the GP, had it rained.
Another question springs to mind. Everyone (Michelin included) knew Indy was in the F1 calendar - why did they wait until the day of the race to decide that they could not guarantee the safety of their race tyre at the speeds attained in qualifying, going through turn # 1?
Academic anyway now, I guess.

Whoa! What the hell was that all about Jem?  With all due respect I think you've lost the plot a bit with those remarks.
At no point were we implying that the US is the center of the universe and I've never felt that way for a second, I've come out several times of this site in condemnation of my governments policies and all that.  My remarks yesterday were directed at F1 (not over here anymore).  Matt pretty well hit it on the screws, F1 for well over a decade has been desperately trying to re-ignite interest in GP racing in the US market, and still struggling to do so even after locating the USGP at Indy.  The FIA was in the last year of a six year contract to hold the USGP at Indy and it looks likely that the Speedway is not going to renew the assciation.  F1 promotes itself as the pinnacle of the sport but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of that over here at the moment, yesterday was amaturish and embarassing in the extreme.  There were a lot of people who travelled very long distances to see that race and to say that they were furious is an understatment.  Sitting behind me was a couple who drove from Toronto, next to them were four guys who flew from Mexico and in front of me were two guys who flew from Switzerland.  I'm putting myself in their shoes, if I had flown all the way over to see the 24 Hours of Le Mans and six cars bothered to race, I would be seriously pissed off too.
Fax

It was a shambles, but putting aside that they should never have been in that position, what else could they do?

I heard that Ferrari said they wouldn't run with a chicane (later that was contradicted so I don't know which was right) - why should they, when they had bothered to do their homework?

No-one could reasonably expect cars with a known safety hazard to go out and race.

If they'd gone out in an exhibition style then they would have been slated too.

I hope heads roll at Michelin. The guy on 5 Live was saying that he expected F1 to go to a single tyre manufacturer as a result. (Err...that could have meant NO cars going out!)

It seems to me to simply being a case of nobody wanting to compromise, and sometimes in the best interest of the sport compromises have to be made.  The FIA should have bit the bullit allowed Michelin to fly in new tires and if not, Ferrari should have just gone ahead and run with the chicane in place...As I said, simply for the good of the sport (which is also a billion dollar industry).  As it stands now, they all look like a bunch of complete assholes.  The FIA, Michelin, Ferrari, the whole damn lot.
Fax

Correct, it was a no win situation (as far as I understood it on radio on my way back from LM ;D). Still, as mentioned before, a) Indy isn't a F1 circuit and if they want to race there then they have to get it right in the first place and b) if they don't get it right then refund the tickets and confess (and maybe even blame it on the circuit for not being F1 compliant, which of course would open another discussion). This was a lame and unprofessional way of dealing with that matter. I still hope heads will roll. Michelin did very well at LM btw.

Just skimmed through it on TiVo, especially the pre-race confusion.

IMO, in the circumstances, Ferrari should be held entirely to blame for the state in which F1 now finds itself in the US. They are the most arrogant team. If they had agreed to the chicane at least a race of sorts would have taken place and there would have been less grounds for the fans to be disgruntled.

And by far the worst interview was when Martin Brundle caught Bernie just before the race and Bernie was claiming to not know what was going on, and trying to be funny and teasing at the most pivotal time in recent F1 history. Martin was quite "in yer face" with his questioning but Bernie just made light of most of it, and certainly said nothing serious at all. Git.

Highlight was Martin then catching Mrs Ecclestone and suggesting that even a woman's intuition would have handled the situation better, and she should go and advise Bernie what he should do.

I also enjoyed Martin's comment at the podium when he said if Michael leaps around he would go and punch him in the face. Michael was suitably subdued, as was Rubens but you had to feel sorry for the guy who was 3rd, on his first ever podium (maybe his last, in a dying sport) celebrating alone up there. At least the crowd didn't boo him off.

I totally agree with Smokie, Ecclestone's behavior was as usual, totally unacceptable and once again showed him to be a total 4rse who doesn't care about the sport (?) or it's fans as long as he is leeching off his multi-millions per race. A pathetic excuse for a human being IMHO.

I thought that Martin Brundle articulated his view exceedingly well and was probably the only person to emerge from the whole debacle with any credit.

Absolutely loved it when Martin stuck one on Bernie big time. Great when he said that he should interview Mrs Ecclestone, because she might make more sense of the matter. I bet Martin struggles with access at the next race though. ;D

Useful info for quiz night- The only time a diesel powered car has taken pole position for a G P was at Indy in 1952 by a Cummins Diesel which failed to finish but did take the start unlike the majority on Sunday. It looks like this farce will have big implications, maybe resulting in reverting to a single tyre supplier again.

Yeah,

imagine Michelin being the only tyre supplier. There would have been no cars at all. Or would Ferrari suddenly have been in favour of the chicane.
How low can they sink to steal one victory ?

As for Bernie, why don't we just stop watching F1. When the millions stop coming in, he might actually listen to the fans and the non-Ferrari teams.

My wife is a big fan of F1 and has been going to Silverstone and at least one other GP a year since 1992. This year however she has cried "enough"and has decided to say bollox to Bernie and his bunch of incompitent muppets and not even bother to watch it on TV. Love F1 or hate it, it is still motor sport and could  be an exciting specticle, if it is not viewers and fans should vote with there support and TV off buttons.
No viewers = no sponsors, no advertising revinue and no  major investments by car companies. Time to hit the meglomaniac dwarf where it hurts most, in his extremely large bank balance.

Fax, my one over-riding thought after learning of the utter debacle on sunday, was getting to a computer ASAP to read your reaction. Needless to say, I am not disappointed in your comments. I bet you were rubbing your hands with glee!

Totally agree Bob, Brad and I bailed out of going to Silverstone in 2000 for exactly the same reasons, had some great times at Club corner, just destoryed by the coroprate entertainment priority as it linned Bernies pockets better.
B.E. must be the worlds most arrogant git - when he should be eating humble pie making light of a very serious let down -I am sure the writs must be flying around from the sponsors who simply didnt get what the paid for, just hope some of them get up to him (unlikly though).

An interesting point. I spoke to a neighbour this morning, who co-incidentally last night at the local garage bumped into another guy who lives nearby. This guy is the chief executive of one of the biggest drinks companies in the world and last year they decided to sponsor a certain team based in Woking. Apparently he had just stepped of the plane back from Indy and was absolutely fuming. His comment was that it was a f**k*ng long way to go just to have breakfast with Juan Pablo Montoya. He was clearly pissed off with having his valuable time wasted in such a manner. It will be interesting to see if there are any knock on effects.

Thanks Andy,
Glad I didn't disappoint.  I'm on vacation this week so a little late getting to the computer this morning.  Hope you guys all had a great time at the Sarthe, looked like a terrific (if a little toasty) time.  I'm still fuming over the whole FIAsco at Indy (and I only drove two hours and had free tickets).  I arrogance of all parties concerned is just mind-numbing.  I've felt from the outset that F1 had no business at Indy, it needed to be at a proper road racing circut to succed over here, not on a street circut in Vegas either, they tried that once already and failed miserably.
Its all irrelevant now, F1's a rotting corpse in this country now. I doubt very seriously we'll ever see another USGP in our lifetime.
Fax

From the 25 minute highlights package i saw last night on ITV2 i thought that Paul Stodart came out very well. Visably pissed off and upset, despite his cars scoring points.

I think it would be fair to say that F1 has f**ed themselves up the ass full stop, not just in the US.  The US farce this year has just highlighted how much of circus it really is and how the clowns running it haven't got a clue.  I used to watch F1 religiously.  Haven't watched a race this season and don't intend to.  

Go to this link to see a cartoon from the Indy paper.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050621/OPINION02/306210001/1093

I think it will be a long time, if ever, that F1 will hoodwick US race enthusiasts again.  I just hope it doesn't spill over into ALMS and the kind of racing that most of us on this forum truely love here in the US.

This one

(http://cmsimg.indystar.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=BG&Date=20050621&Category=OPINION02&ArtNo=306210001&Ref=AR&Profile=1093&MaxW=450&Q=80&Border=0)

thanks to indystar.com

I pretty much stopped watching F1 when Prost retired and Senna was killed -- having taken an instant dislike to Michael Schumacher (hencforth TGF).  After Austria I stopped watching the initial broadcasts and only watched those races in which I was sure TGF did not win.  After "Indy" I have stopped watching it period.

Having witnessed the wrath of the NA$CAR crowd when the Champ Car race in Texas was cancelled due to several near-death experiences by drivers who blacked out in one certain turn and crashed heavily (Mo Gugelman performing this feat TWICE) -- I am unimpressed by those fans who would rather see a driver die than a race cancelled, and who dare to call drivers "sissies" and "cowards" because they prefer to remain alive.  

As in the Texas case, it's entirely psosible that Michelin didn't know what would happen when a lot of cars at speed hit the Brickyard together; and I credit them for admitting that it was possible someone would die if they went out on those tires that weekend.  It would have been more economically feasible for them to close their eyes and pray that nothing went wrong -- remember the Space Shuttle that was launched when many people knew death was a very big likelihood, but launched it was because they didn't want to be 'embarrassed' by being called names?  Do you think there wasn't any 'embarrassment' in having caused the deaths of innocent people in an attempt to save their own flabby backsides from a bunch of people calling them "sissies"?

Remember, too, that America is the most litigious country in the world, if not the Solar System.  Had Michelin closed its eyes and said nothing, and had Fernando Alonso suffered a major blowout and launched his car into that of TGF, killing them both, the echoes of the ensuing litigation -- not to mention the huge crackdown on ALL forms of racing for generations to come -- would have been something not a single one of us wanted to see.

The silver lining in this michegoss is probably that now, with the Americans screaming and yelling (especially the American SPONSORS), even Bernie (but probably not Max) will have to see that something has to be done except wait for Bernie to die.

Kate,
A couple of quick corrections are in oreder here.  First off, the race in Texas that was cancelled was a CART indy car race, not a NASCAR round.  Secondly, most of the complaints I've heard from US fans are not with what happened, its the way that it happened (self included). Michelin came out said there is a problem, nothing new here, NASCAR, CART and the IRL have all run into tire issues before, the tire supplier simpy flies in a different batch of rubber, situation resolved.  The biggest problem at Indy was that solutions were proposed and no-one would budge on their position i.e  Michlein wanted to fly in new tires and the FIA wouldn't allow them and when they proposed running with a chicane, all of the teams (including two Bridgstone shod teams) agreed with the exception of Ferrari.  Simply put, solutions to the situation were there, nobody would agree to them because it would compromise their position.  For a long time now one of the biggest problems F1 has faced in the US is the widely held perception that the F1 community are a bunch of greedy, self-important, prima-donnas who don't give a sh*t about the fans.  Why do they have any reason to think otherwise now.
Fax

I know it was a CART race (I happened to have been there) -- but it was the NA$CAR fans in the stands -- evidenced by their caps and shirts -- holding up signs saying "Cowards Aren't Racing Today" and cursing our drivers for not wishing to be killed for their entertainment.

And I agree entirely with your summary of the US F1 fans (or ex-fans) attitude toward F1 in general -- greedy, money-obsessed, and totally contemptuous of the fans, not to mention EUROPEAN -- and how it was reinforced and exacerbated by what they saw last weekend.

Personally anything that gives Tony George a black eye is fine with me, though.   ;D

Whoops! Sorry Kate, I stand corrected, you did mention that it was a Champ Car race, I didn't correctly read your posting.  The ninety degree heat here in Cincy has cooked the old grey matter.  Agreed about Tony George anything that costs him money and makes him look like a boob (which he is) is fine with me.  I also agree to a certain extent about the Euro factor.  I've always felt that the USGP belongs at a proper road racing venue (Laguna Seca, Road America, Road Atlanta, etc.)  I've always thought holding the GP at Indy is inviting too much of the "good 'ole boy factor" which yes, is going to be anti-Euro biased.  I remember after the first GP at Indy back in 2000 where a huge portion of the crowd was the curious NASCAR type, there was alot of "I'm getting sick of listening to all these foreign fagots" type of comments after it was said & done.  The race needs to be held at an established road racing venue where the spectator base is knowledgable and enthusiastic of road racing.  The Indianapolis Motor Speedway is just too much a part of IRL and NASCAR territory.
Fax

I once thought the Praesideo would have been a good place to build a permanent road course -- near San Francisco, an international type city with stuff to do after 9:00 p.m., and easy to get around, and with an international airport worthy of the name.  Most important is that it ought to be near a big international city with night life, which Indianapolis isn't and doesn't have.

The difficulty with Road America and Road Atlanta is that they are too far away from anything cultural or international (I lived in Atlanta during the Olympics and what the international people and press said about their pretense at being an "international city" would make Holy Mary drink gin from the cat dish.)  But either track would be better than "Indy" which may have "tradition" but is as irrelevant as trying to stage the 24 Hours of Le Mans in Nazareth, Pennsylvania.

Why does an F1 circuit need to be in close proximity to a cultural centre? Silverstone, Magny Cours, Spa, Hockenheim - all in the middle of nowhere. It could be argued that Indianapolis is the historical center of racing in USA. I don't think the city is the problem, in fact I'd argue that Indy is evocative, in terms of racing heritage. It's the facility that's wrong. A superspeedway infield will never make a great road course - especially if a large part of the speedway itself is utilised. Daytona's road course is equally compromised - and perhaps the Rolex 24's status in sportscar racing has deminished, as a result.
It's academic now, but a road course like Elkhart Lake, Watkins Glen, Sears Point or Road Atlanta would work if there was the incentive to spend the money to bring such a circuit to FIA standard. (Trouble is, of course, that in doing so, the appeal of these tracks to the spectator, is lost amongst the acres of gravel traps and debris fencing).

I still haven't figured out where its set in stone that the USGP has to be held in a huge metropolitan market.  It thrived for twenty years at Watkins Glen but when Bernie decided to get really greedy and take his show to Vegas and Detroit, it flopped miserably.  Likewise Dallas, Phoenix, etc.  The bottom line is that Bernie and the FIA have never understood the US motorsports market and never will.
Agreed with Matt, if it ever did make to one of our really great road circuts they would have to butcher it beyond all recognition so f**k Bernie, take your stupid made for TV extravaganza to places like China and Turkey, if they're dumb enough to buy into it, great for you, we're smarter than that.
Fax

You are of course absolutley spot on with this comment Fax. The powers that be have no idea what the American market wants or even expects for that matter. I have been lucky enough to live in the states for a couple of years and can safely say that you guys know how to put on a good show even if the cars just go round in circles! ;) (fire suit on)!

The only driving force in F1 is money. Lets take Monaco as an example. There is zero, let me repeat that, zero overtaking oportunities so the word "race" actually becomes an oxymoron! But........ there is sh*t loads of money involved and that is the ONLY reason F1 stays there.

I hope personally that is dies.

But that's just my opinion.

This just in:

2005 United States Formula 1 Grand Prix, Indianapolis


Straight talk and a sincere gesture for the American spectators:
It could have been an exciting race


One week after the Indianapolis Grand Prix, Michelin wishes to make a sincere gesture of goodwill towards the people present at the GP, a group whose passion for F1 is encouraging in the development of this sport in the United States.


Therefore, on our own initiative and in total solidarity with our partners, we have taken two decisions:


1. Michelin has decided to contribute to the costs incurred by the spectators present at the circuit on Sunday June 19th 2005 by offering to refund their tickets. This is an important decision, since Michelin is not at all legally bound to do this.


Michelin deeply regrets that the public was deprived of an exciting race and therefore wishes to be the first, among the different groups involved in the Indianapolis race, to make a strong gesture towards the spectators.


2. Michelin also offers to buy 20,000 tickets for the 2006 U.S. Grand Prix to be given to spectators who were present at the Indianapolis race in 2005. We are offering this to promote further Formula 1 interest in the United States.


We would also like to take this opportunity to underline the fact that it is unacceptable that our partner teams have been accused by the FIA of having boycotted the Indianapolis Grand Prix.  The reality is that together, Michelin and its partners have done everything possible to assure that the race could take place in total safety.


We are extremely disappointed that the proposals made with all our teams were not accepted. These proposals, including a chicane, were technically viable and totally met all safety requirements. On Sunday morning, June 19, the sporting authority had all the means necessary to preserve the interest of the race.


And yet, the sporting authority rejected the proposed solutions. Why?  In our view this is totally incomprehensible and reflects a lack of respect for the spectators.

It is the spirit of respect for the spectators that brought us, with our partners, to propose solutions to allow the race to take place in total safety. It is this same spirit that leads us today to make this gesture.


I'll take it!  :)

Now that's what I call damage control!  Good for Michelin!

==========

I am thinking of the international fan when I suggest that a modern-day F1 race needs to be near a big city with night life (e.g. Montreal) to be attractive to people outside the immediate area.  I think it also needs to be near a metro area due to the sheer size of the USA, in order to draw a larger local audience; people are not going to drive 24 hours for a 3 day weekend unless they are crazy (well, we did it to attend Road Atlanta, but then it was the week after 9/11 and a good reason to get out of Canada and back to solidarity with our fellow Americans) or unless they have other things they can do than sit in a grandstand and watch race cars.

Yes, in the "good old days" when people didn't have the choices they have today, you could stage a race in a wilderness and people would come.  Now they will say "Well why should I pay $2,000 to go to Indianapolis for an F1 race when I can pay $300 and see a NA$CAR race half a day's drive from here?"

Good for Michelin, but I think Ferrari should take some blame as well.

So can they post me a Ferrari ?  ;D

Kate,
I tend to disagree with you on a couple the points you made in your last post.  First off, in the good old days there was every bit as much in the way of motor-racing choices as there are today, it just wasn't as promoted.  There are some forms of the sport which were much healthier in the "old days", Indycar racing springs to mind instantly.  As far as needing a metro area to draw from?  Most of the largest attended races in the US every year are at relatively remote venue's.
The NASCAR races at Talladega and Bristol draw massive crowds and both tracks are in the boonies.  The largest attendance for any bike race in North America (including the Daytona 200 and the World Superbike round at Laguna Seca) every year is the US Superbike championship double-header at Mid-Ohio, another venue out in the sticks.  How do you explain the 200,000 spectators that show up at Sebring every March, talk about a circut in the middle of nowhere.  Circuts like Mid-Ohio and Road America draw huge ALMS crowds.  The spectators that make a single trip to an event and make a big production out of it aren't the fans that will make or break an event.  That's Bernie type thinking.
You need a strong, loyal fan base that returns year after year to a venue that will keep a race healthy.  Look at the crowds that go to the Glen every year for the NASCAR race, many of them are veterans of the GP days there.
Going to a race meeting isn't about going clubbing at night in a big city and staying in posh hotels.  Its about camping at the circut ot staying at a cheap hotel nearby and enjoying the friendship of fellow racing fans.  Many times its the small towns nearby that add to the charm of the event.  I think you look at it too much from the "Big Event" viewpoint.  Very Bernie-esq.
Fax  

and me for the fact that whilst the race was going on, I was so hacked off with the situation that I decided to drive to Rouen instead....

I veermently deny that I would have been doing this after the 24hrs race, and claim wholeheartedly that this is as a result of Ferrari's actions.


On a serious note, its good to see Michelin taking some positive action, where the FIA have failed. As Michelin's press people point out - Bernie Co. COULD have done something, and given that Ferrari were the only objectees, the best course of action would have been to exclude ferrari, give them 20 championship points divided between schumi and barrichello. and let the other teams race with no points counting in the championship.  At least THEN the fans would have had something to watch.

It should be noted that this is no small gesture fom Michelin - there were 200,000 people at indy that day were there not?  at $100 a pop for tickets, thats $20million if EVERYONE claims - plus a further $2 million in tickets for next years race!!

Even if its not wholehearted, at least it proves that there are still SOME people in the sport who do it for the love of motor racing - Michelin may still be a business, but at least they show a hint of emotion when they need to.

Isn't it about time Bernie moved over now?

Should we start a Bernie out petition?
 

I agree 100%, except for the ALMS at Road America comment.  They drew well the first year, but it's been off each year since.  Last year was a ghost town, complete with tumbleweeds.

Just found this Bernie quote on another site - not sure if it is true.

When asked what he thought of Danica Patrick, who had this year achieved national acclaim by becoming the first female to lead the Indy 500 before finishing fourth, he replied,

"Women should be dressed in white, like all domestic appliances".



There is also an interesting interview with Mad Max here http://tinyurl.com/7op5n

For once, and I hate to say this, I don't think Bernie was to blame. He seemed genuinely to be trying to get a show on. No, it's Facist Max Moseley at the FIA and the arrogant half-witted idiots at Ferrari to whom we can lay the blame for no race. They are the ones who objected to the chicane.

Michelin screwed up, of that there is no doubt. But it was not done deliberately. I cannot understand why the FIA wanted teams to race with tyres that were potentially killers. IMO this is the beginning of the end, esp if the FIA hit the teams with draconian penalties at tomorrows disciplinary hearing. I think we will see a parting of the ways between the teams and the FIA, who are the main villains of the peice.

Max defends his position well, by saying that if a car has a faulty part, its their problem, and he had warned the tyre companies some weeks earlier that they should ensure that there was no risk of tyres failing (but how).  Even Michelins second batch of tyres were faulty.

They should have done a deal, but Ferrari said no - can you blame them?

I say sack the lot.

Max is right when he says about a car having a faulty part its down to the team to sort it. However when 7 teams have been supplied with a some duff gear that could and did result in a serious crash some flexibility is needed.

If the teams had raced, knowing full well that the tyres where faulty the outcome could have tied up the teams and FIA in court for years ( Mark Donohue's widow did just that with Goodyear)

The teams had no option not to race, the FIA & Max did have the option to change the track.

Having said that, if the FIA did change the track, the tyres would still have been faulty, would the teams have raced knowing that? or did the 7 teams know full well that Ferrari would object and therefore be made to look even more arrogant.

Well, being a devout member of Corner 2 Racing Inc. who have been attending races at Mosport since the 1970s, I somewhat agree with you in regard to the "hard core fan" riff.  However, if I am flying in from Athens (Greece, not Georgia) for a race, I have no intention of camping in the wilderness and driving 35 miles for dinner (see Road Atlanta) every night.  When we went to Monza we stayed in a nice B&B in Lake Como and I can't recall any mention of camping at the circuit although there may have been some.  Ditto at Montreal; there's no camping on the Isle Gilles Villeneuve that I have ever heard of.  Nor does Indianapolis, or does it?  Do the majority of people who attended the USGP at "Indy" actually camp?

Mid-Ohio does not attract F1 type crowds (I like it there very much but again if you don't have a car, you have nowhere to eat, assuming you can get there in the first place); nor does Mosport, although we got 45,000 to the race the year of the Great Northeastern Blackout, the biggest crowd since the old CanAm days.

I am thinking of the people who actually do attend Formula One races, not the people who attend NA$CAR races and those die-hard camping people who will go anywhere and bear any burden for a good race.  Beautiful People Don't Camp.

Agreed, the grid posers and celeb wannabe's don't camp.  That said I've got buddies who have been to Imola, Hockenheim, Spa and Silverstone and all camped in or around the circut.  Monza don't know about but at Indy there are a fair number of campers up in the Coca-Cola lot at the north end of the speedway. Personally I'll take Mid-Ohio or Road Atlanta over IMS or Daytona any day but I don't really give a sh*t about being pampered either. Just as happy standing in the mud at Sebring as being in a sky box somewhere.
Fax

JOINT PRESS RELEASE FROM:

B.A.R Honda
BMW Williams
Renault F1 Team
Sauber Petronas
Team McLaren Mercedes
Toyota Motorsport GmbH


Paris, France, Wednesday 29th June 2005

The six Formula One Michelin teams identified above are very disappointed by the decision of the World Motor Sport Council to find them guilty of two of the five charges brought against them by the FIA in relation to the 2005 U.S. Grand Prix at Indianapolis.

1) In relation to the finding that they failed to ensure that they were in possession of suitable tyres, the Teams point out that they reasonably relied on Michelin, an approved FIA tyre supplier and a highly reputable manufacturer of tyres worldwide, to provide suitable tyres for that race. As Michelin have already acknowledged, they were responsible for the supply of unsuitable tyres for the Indianapolis circuit. The FIA's decision accepts that there were "strong mitigating circumstances" for the Teams. In truth, those circumstances provided a complete answer to the charge, given that the Teams cannot be held responsible for what occurred.

2) In relation to the finding that the Teams wrongfully refused to allow their cars to start the race having regard to their right to use the pit lane on each lap, the Teams respond as follows. The charges suggested only one means by which the Teams could safely have raced (the use of a speed restriction). On that charge, the Teams were found not guilty. The Teams cannot understand how they can be found guilty by reference to another proposed solution, which was not part of the charges brought against them, which was not suggested by the FIA at Indianapolis, which was considered unsafe and which, in any event, would not have achieved a satisfactory race for the fans.

The Teams therefore will be lodging an appeal against each of these findings.

The Teams explained to the World Motor Sport Council that, in the light of the clear and written advice from Michelin that it was unsafe to race at Indianapolis on the tyres supplied by that company, the Teams had no choice but to decline to race. Any other decision would have been irresponsible. Nineteen of the current Formula One drivers have expressed their agreement with the decision of the Teams.

The Teams much regret that the American public were unable to enjoy a race involving all ten Formula One teams, and would like to express their thanks to the many fans who have communicated their support for the stance taken by the Teams and by Michelin on grounds of safety.

The Teams are pleased that Michelin have agreed to compensate fans who attended the race.

The Teams very much look forward to the next Grand Prix on Sunday.

The cardinal error of thought is the assumption that "everyone wants what I want."  I have lots of friends who camp, some of my best friends are campers.  Nevertheless, I do not believe, from my own experience, that the majority of Formula One fans are campers.

I recently priced a week at the Monaco Grand Prix and it came to $13,700.00 Canadian.  Had I spent that kind of money for a race and got the treatment meted out at "Indy", you can bet they'd have already heard from my lawyer.

Kate,
Your clearly willing to spend alot more money than I am to see contemporary F1!  Would rather spend a hell of alot less and go to Le Mans.
Fax

I agree. I think that the overwhelming majority of spectators at F1 (and probably all motor racing events, excepting 24 hour races) are day trippers, who live within a days drive of the circuit, so have no need for accommodations. In my experience of F1, a very large proportion of attendees, who are in hotels and seeking gourmet food and entertainment, tend to be the recipients of corporate hospitality.
There is nothing wrong with that, of course. It is far more agreeable to sip the finest wines and pick at the larks tongues and other exquisite finger food, whilst enjoying unobstructed and panoramic views of the circuit, all paid for by conglomorates who are bribing you for your business (Did I mention that UPS gave me 'all access' passes and Nextel Tower Suite tickets to the Pepsi 400 on Saturday?)  
That said, I have stood in the mud, alongside Fax at more than a few events - and we've had a total blast (2004 Rolex 24 being a good example) - so it works either way.
Last time I went to the British GP, at the luncheon, prior to the race, it was clear that at least 75% of those in attendance, as guests, had not the faintest interest in the race and were there simply to enjoy the free Verv Cliquot and king prawns.

Very interesting so far... read this too: http://www.minardi.it/press/dettaglio.asp?IDComunicato=1875&LN=UK&IDGara=&IDComunicatiTipo= (http://www.minardi.it/press/dettaglio.asp?IDComunicato=1875&LN=UK&IDGara=&IDComunicatiTipo=)

It's Paul Stoddart's view of things, maybe a bit biased but you can feel the fresh breeze which is going through F1 at the moment.  ;D


Edited because I failed to add that Minardi is running on Bridgestone.

NOTICE OF COURSE WHO DID NOT SIGN THIS DOCUMENT -- SURPRISE!

Joint statement by 19 drivers
Racing series   F1  
Date  2005-06-29

World Motor Sport Council Hearing: 29th June 2005
Statement of F1 drivers regarding the 2005 Untied States Grand Prix at Indianapolis

The attached statement has been signed by the following drivers (in alphabetical order):

Christijan Albers
Fernando Alonso
Jenson Button
David Coulthard
Pedro de la Rosa
Giancarlo Fisichella
Patrick Friesacher
Nick Heidfeld
Christian Klien
Felipe Massa
Juan Pablo Montoya
Kimi Raikkonen
Takuma Sato
Ralf Schumacher
Jarno Trulli
Jacques Villeneuve
Mark Webber
Alexander Wurz
Ricardo Zonta

Introduction

1. We the undersigned drivers make this statement in order to assist the World Motor Sport Council in its consideration of the events at the Indianapolis Grand Prix on Sunday 19th June 2005.

2. We wish in particular to respond to the suggestion that we could have raced with a speed limit (which was never defined) somehow imposed through Turn 13 on cars with Michelin tyres, or that we should have raced but the cars with Michelin tyres should have slowed down voluntarily through this Turn.

3. This suggestion would have been an unprecedented restriction in an F1 race and would have been completely contrary to the competitive essence of Formula One or any motor race that we have ever participated in. It would have been unworkable, unpoliceable and above all, unsafe.

Safety

4. Not all cars would have been subject to the speed restriction. At least 6 cars would have been going through Turn 13 as fast as possible i.e. over 320 km per hour. The other cars - if they all complied - would have had to slow suddenly going into the Turn, travel at a much slower speed through the Turn and then accelerate back to racing speed.

5. This would have meant a huge speed differential between cars at the approach of Turn 13, during Turn 13 and exiting Turn 13. Having cars travelling at dramatically different speeds at the same point on the race track would have been completely chaotic and highly dangerous.

6. There is one good racing line through Turn 13. All of us would have tried to take that line. If a car subject to the restriction had to slow down approaching Turn 13 on the racing line, a car behind it not subject to the restriction would have had to take avoiding action and try to overtake on the Turn off the racing line. this would have put both drivers at considerable risk.

7. Given the competitive nature of a race, the speed restriction would have become a focal point for overtaking. For instance two cars both subject to the speed restriction racing each other going into or coming out of Turn 13 would inevitably have each tried to gain advantage by braking later or accelerating earlier. With other cars racing through the Turn at higher speeds this too would have been chaotic and very unsafe.

8. Given the nature of a race there would also have been a clear incentive for drivers to maintain speeds above the restricted speeds, particularly if they were close in the race. This would have risked damaging the Michelin tyres which would have created yet further risks.

Practicality

9. The Teams would have been unable to fit a speed limiter which would have operated (a)round Turn 13 in the time available. It would have been left to the Drivers to attempt to accomplish the speed restriction by themselves whilst still trying to race each other. Quite apart from the safety issues explained above, none of think that it would have been possible for a Driver to do this.

10. Unlike the pit lane (which has an obvious and clearly marked entrance and exit) there was no clear physical marker on the race track for where any speed limit should begin and end at Turn 13. In a pit lane, we race to and from well-defined lines, and we are aware precisely when to brake and when to accelerate so as to maintain race speed before and after the pit. In Turn 13, we would and could not have known when and where to break and when and where to accelerate to achieve the speed restriction through the Turn. Each Driver would have had to make a judgement which would have been different on each lap depending on what was happening in the race. It would have been quite impossible for any of us to know each time whether or not we had maintained the speed restriction.

11. We also believe it would have been impossible for the Stewards or anyone else to tell at Turn 13 precisely when any car had slowed, and whether it complied with the speed limit throughout the restricted areas.

12. For these reasons, we have no doubt that a speed restriction imposed at Turn 13 would have been impossible to comply with and impossible to police.

The day of the Grand Prix

13. On the morning of the Grand Prix, all of the Drivers attended a Drivers' briefing with representatives from the Teams. We were told of the Michelin tyre problem. Even though we all wanted to race, we accepted that the Michelin Teams could not go against the safety advice from Michelin and take the risk of serious and potentially fatal accidents.

14. We were also told of the proposal for a chicane at Turn 13. Chicanes have been successfully introduced in races in the past. We believe that a chicane would have been a perfectly workable solution at Indianapolis. Accordingly none of us objected at the meeting.

15. Many of us were also consulted by our Teams about the FIA proposal for a speed restriction. Those who were consulted explained to their Teams that a speed restriction would not work because it would be dangerous and impractical (for the reasons set out above). The Teams in turn explained this to the FIA officials.

Conclusion

16. All of us wanted to have a proper race at Indianapolis, which is one of motor racing's most sacred venues, and to showcase Formula One to the American public. We are extremely disappointed that we were unable to do this.

23 June 2005
Signed by Christijan Albers, Fernando Alonso, Jenson Button, David Coulthard, Pedro de la Rosa, Giancarlo Fisichella, Patrick Friesacher, Nick Heidfeld, Christian Klien, Felipe Massa, Juan Pablo Montoya, Kimi Raikkonen, Takuma Sato, Ralf Schumacher, Jarno Trulli, Jacques Villeneuve, Mark Webber, Alexander Wurz, Ricardo Zonta.

Thanks guys - it's all coming out now isn't it?

Stoddart clearly has it in for Max (me too!) and if his account is truthful then Ferrari need to learn a thing ore two about team spirit etc. This account sort of tis in with other stuff I heard on the day and have read elsewhere.

Where were Mr Schumacher (M) and Mr Barrichello when the driver statement was being signed? Maybe they had an unfortunate coincidental attack of some debilitating disease (I wish) but I am tending towards Mr Stoat (for it is he) "preventing Ferrari being drawn into the dispute".

Michelin have stuck their corprate hand up to a degree and offered the compensation thing. I suppose it would be too much to expect the FIA to be at all contrite...

What a cracking account from Mr Stodart. I thought when i watched the highlights he was upset, But to put into fairly graphic words his feelings is something ace.

that's Dutch television for you, Robbo ;D

Got to admit, Michelin is  going to come out of a PR, pile of sh*t disaster smelling like roses. All for the, in corporate terms, chump change of about twenty million bucks.  Ferrari on the other hand are shown to be the complete pricks that we all knew they were.
Fax

While I am sure this is a truthful account of what went on at indy, Paul stoddart does have a history of putting personal gain before honesty.

This was shown when his airline European Airways failed after Minardi defaulted on loans that the airline had put forward.

This left a large work force without a job & in my brothers case 2 months wages that covered an overseas posting and therefore sizeable amount. many attempts have been made by the staff to speak to Stoddie but to no avail.

To date no wages have been paid yet he still runs an aircraft parts sevice and the Minardi F1 team amongst others.

There are a large number of fans who believe that the "punishment" was put off til September so that enough points could be deducted from anyone ahead of The German Fellow in the Red Car to guarantee the championship they have already promised him.

This is of course conspiracy theory mixed with cynicism of the highest order,  but it does make one wonder how Ferrari can believe it has any credibility left in the world.