Club Arnage

Latest statement from TVR:

We can confirm that a 100% shareholding in UK car-maker TVR has been purchased today. The new owner is Nikolai Smolenski.

Plans for the future are to continue trading, invest heavily in new technology and production methods, and hence enhance the TVR brand to become a global player.

There will be no large-scale restructuring and new managerial appointments will be made in due course. Peter Wheeler, previous owner, will remain on board as a senior consultant.

http://www.tvr-eng.co.uk/news_new_owner.htm

I read that and don't know whether to :D or to :'(. Time will tell...

Read it and weep:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/3931155.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/3931155.stm)

sorry I didn't notice the other thread on this. Close this one if you want. My excuse is that I'm in a state of shock.

This might be extremly good news. TVR hasn't been doing very well recently. Some fresh money might do wonders. As for Smolenski's age of only 23, well Martin Lilley was still youger when he took over the company. Here's the official word: http://www.tvr-eng.co.uk/news_tvr_purchase.htm

Get over it. They're crap cars anyway. Garage queens - invariably owned by w**k*rs who like them because they make a loud noise.

Sounds pretty much like my cobra then  ;)




.....I DO like the noise though (and I reckon TVRs are glorified kit cars)

(http://www.river-road.net/oldcars/kits98/tn_0_jpg.jpg)

now its motorsport

what next??

One does wonder, at 24, where one get all that money, if there's any spare throw a few quid over here.
 :o

>>Get over it. They're crap cars anyway. Garage queens - invariably owned by w**k*rs who like them because they make a loud noise.>>

Same Mould as Corvettes come out of then.

Corvettes - Fast cars that handle like shite around corners - designed to go long, straight distances.

TVR's - Intensely British cars, handle well, with Big V8 Engines - may not be the best made cars in the world - but better than ANY yank mobile any day.

Give me a choice between a New Corvette And a New TVR - Its not even a competition - TVR Wins hands down....

Now there's a phrase you don't hear very often! (except occasionally in the TVR Challenge Cup) :D

That said, I agree whole-heartedly with your post Brad. Your standard TVR may be hideously unreliable, and have worse build quality than a Land Rover, but they're still fantastic cars to drive which is why they're so popular.

Corvette my arse!

Steve - If you speak to my Dad at any point, please do not mention unreliablity on TVRs - we are just about to buy a Chimerea!! - And I REALLY want him to buy it - so shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 :-X

Real Men drive TVR – but only tin tops

Regency dandys, martial arts instructors, graphic designers, and financial advisors flounce around in soft-top Mercs/Porsche/TVR/BMW

Spivs drive tin top Merc/Porsche/BMW/Audi

Corvettes – no idea

BMW Mini – Architects

Spoken like a true ignoramus. When was the last time, I wonder, that you actually drove a Corvette? You might want to compare lateral g performance of the current C5 with any TVR, before you launch into an uninformed, hysterical defence of a car that looks like it was designed by schoolboys and is built by blacksmiths. The only decent thing about TVR is the AJP engine - and even this is flawed by some fairly fundamental design inadequacies. Most seriously, almost all TVR models are aerodynamically unstable. Front end lift on every Chimera I have driven at speed is ridiculous - that said, most are not driven hard, because they rattle, scuttle shake and oversteer so much that pushing it is all too much like hard work.
I respect your patriotic feelings, when the true British sportscar industry has disappeared down the toilet, but your comparison is surely based on those feelings alone. I have a lot of first hand experience with TVR (the company) and it's products, since the late 80's
TVR have never had access to the development money to design and build a car that even approaches the technical superiority of the Chevy Corvette. GM manufacture(d) - C5 production came to an end earlier this month - many, many thousands of coupes, verts, fhc's and Zo6's - all reliable 175+mph, highly sophisticated but affordable super-cars. The development budget for C5 alone could have bought TVR 100 times over.
Finally - though not all that relevant, I suppose, compare the Corvettes road racing pedigree with that of TVR and ask yourself, "I wonder which is the better sportscar, from an overall performance point of view?"
TVR's suck. Always have. Now that they're in new ownership, things might change - but deep down, we all know they won't.  

Hold on a minute there Chomski!!! He was only bemoaning the loss of British ownership and havin' a bit of a pop.

Matt, I know you're a big Vette fan and I have never criticised your somewhat vulgar choice of wheels previously. But I think you're being a bit too kind to the Vette and a tadge harsh on the Trev.

Firstly, the Vette, to the eyes of most Europeans, looks frankly hideous and tasteless. That's because it is! It appears on the outside to be a hybrid between a sixties Jap GT on steroids and a giant penis-shaped vibrator. What the many committees who designed it were thinking will forever remain a mystery to me. As for the interior, unless you're a big fan of shiny black plastic column stalks, faux leatherette dash finishes and ten different beeping noises (including one to tell the driver he's selected first gear), then I can't really see what there is to recommend it. Like alsmost all other US built vehicles, one does wonder if they've ever heard of build quality, I refer to both the low quality of the exterior and interior finishes and also to body alignment and wobbley panel gaps. Whilst GM (bless their cynical penny pinching cold hearts) have managed to give the C5 a bit of roadholding these days, I understand thatb the handling (as opposed to roadholding) is certainly not amongst the best. It's been descibed as "inert and lacking driver involvement and feedback". I'd love to see you have a pop on a wet road against a Sub WRX! It would be laughable! Except for the aircon which I guess, like most Yanky car, is superb, the Vette is about as desirable in my book as a regular Buick Regal. I mean pushrods in the engine fer chrissakes! Not even a Regal still has pushrods does it?? I can't think of any other country where they still make car engines with pushrods. At least the Vette has eventually moved away from running on cart springs, which belong in the 16th centruy.

 That said, I can see why they sell in the States. Apple pie and Mom patriotism and the fact that they're rather cheap.

And as and when I have time, I'll post something defending the highly flawed TVR. Perfect they ain't but if GM had used even 1% of the wit and vim that has driven TVR these past few years, then we'd all be driving them.

Hope this helps.

PS I know so much about cars, I'm just about to buy a Chrysler Crossfire.

I consider to be quite objective as we hardly have any French sportcar manufacturer since the closing of Venturi.

Corvette is an all-american car, following the tradition of muscle cars,... You're a man because you've got a big block under your bonnet.

TVr is an all-british car, following the tradition of home and hand-maded sports cars.... You're a man because you make the choice to drive an exotic car, not 100% reliable but that's a part of the british sport car tradition too.

To be honest, I'ld really like to own a Vette, but only the '53 roadster.

Younger ones, from a continental european point of view, would be considered as hairdressers' cars.

So I'ld really appreciate a TVR !!

To add some alternative reasoning to this debate, I see from the new C6 details that you can have a heads up display with a lateral g meter.  This implies that the car may well be capable of pulling impressive lateral g.

However, previous incarnations (C4 back) were not dissimilar to a box barge when cornering.  Straight line speed, no problem, especially in the guise of the 427 cubic inch six pack big block.  But stopping it and cornering it were an acquired art.

To put the satin pump on the other foot, the TVR started life as a low production 'Kit' car, with a variety of borrowed Ford engines and other parts.  Take a look at the mk1 Cortina rear lights on the early cars.

From small beginnings, and small engines, the Ford 289 was shoe horned in, and then we enter the V6 era.

Thankfully, TVR then went on to develop the humble 3.5 Rover V8, ultimately opening it up to 5 litres.  Attention to detail included tuning the exhaust for just that 'right' noise.  And we all know ho much we like a noisy V8.

However, TVRs have attracted a reputation for being somewhat unreliable and to be driven mostly by city wide boys and hairdressers.  On the other hand, the Vette has a certain exclusivity and is only available with the steering wheel in the passengers lap.

It's true, you pays you money etc and all those other bullshit cliches, but I know what I'd rather have..............


(http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/misc/fishing/s-cast4.jpg)

I'm pleased that this has created some debate.
It's interesting to note that Andy Zarse pitches heavy critiscism of the Corvette, but does not balance his argument with his views on the TVR's winning attributes in this comparison.
There is a lot of subjective and personal bias in his argument - it's just a wee bit thin on fact.
I concede that the interior of the car is disappointing on the eye, though highly functional, ergonomically sound and comprehensively equipped. The standard equipment on the C5 would add around GBP15,000 to a similar spec BMW or Benzo.
The exterior finish of the car is absolutely superb - flawless, in fact. I cannot imagine why you suggest anything otherwise. Panel fit, shut-lines, paint and clearcoat finishes are excellent.
The vette doesn't handle like a 360 Modena, true - but it handles better than a TVR Griffith, Chimera, Tuscan or Cerbera in the opinions of critics much more capable and credible than me.
We've debated the "WRX would leave you standing on a wet country road" before. What, may I ask, has that got to do with this comparison?
There are some very sound engineering reasons why GM utilised an OHV engine in the C5. Not least of which is that it made the car affordable (unlike the late 80's ZR1 for instance). It also allowed for an aerodynamic profile (through a low bonnet-line) that removed the lift characteristics associated with several TVR models and gave it the lowest cd figures of any current road car, even though to some it looks "hideous and tasteless" - again, subjective, not objective. The bone stock LS1 delivers 350bhp and the C5R is powered by a push rod engine - what's the big issue here?
Steve Brown is probably right - the Corvette is not popular in Europe for a number of reasons - LHD, cost of purchase and service/parts and out-dated, pre-conceived ideas about what Europeans think the car is like.    

It's interesting to read in the motoring press of peoples preconceived ideas regarding sportscars and the badges they carry on their front ends.

I mean, mention the name Lotus and it conjures up distant images of F1 cars and occasionally unreliable road cars.
Mention Vauxhall and you think of the family saloon with little Billy screaming in the back and mum driving along with her mobile phone jambed in her ear.

However, compare the Lotus Elise and the Vauxhall VX220.  Two very similar 2 seater sports / track day cars.  The Vauxhall has been sneered at, the Lotus drooled over, but I would suggest the Vauxhall is the better of the two cars.

TVR's and Corvettes are a similar analogy.  Both are capable sports car with large capacity engines.  Each has it's own querks and appeal.
 
I can't really understand the European fixation that a sportscar has to have a multivalve, multi cam engine (generally in the back) that screams up to 10,000 rpm and is invariably red.  I suppose it stems from the difference between typical European and North American motorsports and the tracks they race on.

I welcome and applaud the many and varied attempts at producing new sportscars.  Some are successfull, some are shite and some win races.  
When the next generation of steam cars come out, I'll be the first to have a nose in the boiler.

If the market of free thinkers and innovators was not allowed to exist, we would all be driving around in something like this.

(http://www.okino.com/tutorials/lego_car_280.gif)

Matt,
Gotta admit, when you took your Vette to Le Mans a few years ago and entire families were emptying their houses to come and look at it and half the Houx campsite was drooling over it, I certainly didn't get the impression that the Euro's thought it was a hideous piece of American junk.
John

Good points Steve, the VX220 Turbo runs rings round the Elise at a fraction of the cost.

The point I was making about the Vette is really a general criticism about GM. A company of such massive worldwide resources really should be coming up with some elegant engineering solutions to todays motoring problems. And what do they give us? A new type of fu cking biro holder in the Vectra! Not really cutting edge is it?

I know they're trying to develope fuel cell cars etc, but what's the point, the American public will never accept them.

As a general criticism of the motoring public, and particularly the American motoring public, once the oil finally runs out, I do wonder what our grand childrens' grand children will think of the current generation who run the kids around in giant fuel guzzling trucks for no apparent reason. Tw ats probably.

So where does this leave us in terms of sportscars? Gas guzzling monsters like the Vette are relics of the past and should be left behind. Colin Chapman saw the future years ago. Light weight, ultra modern materials, clever solutions, maximising power from fuel efficiency and this is where it's gonna be at. Yes I love the big old uns, Cobras and some classic Vettes definitely included. But they are for things like owners club meets at Gaydon and Classic Le Mans.

Future products, well take a look at Noble. What Lee Noble has acheived over the last few years is remarkable, a true sucessor to Chapman I'd say. And not a pushrod in sight!

Hi Fax. You sure it was drool and not vomit? ;D Perhaps they were just curious as they'd never seen one before...

Matt, good to hear from you bud, and I always enjoy our "debates" on these vexed questions. But I can't agree on the "thinness" of the facts in this discussion. I'd say there was plenty of facts flying around, you've just chosen to ignore them!

Now I'm no big fan of TVRs cars. Their build quality makes US cars seem a paragon of integrity. But have you driven any of the new Trevs? They're far better than the 12 year old Chims you mention. Not quite in 911 or F360 territory but miles better than they were. I understand much of the aero problems you elude to are related to the relatively light weight of the vehicles. Again the new ones are much better in this respect. Re the handling, IMO, they talk to you, you just need to understand what they're telling you. This is quite unlike the Vette I guess with it's electronic this and it's anti that.

I don't think it's fair to call Trev's kit cars. 1. You can't buy them in kit form and 2. name me any other kitcar manufacturer who makes his own car, including the engine, wiring loom, body, chassis, suspension and instruments all in house? Even the beautifully hand crafted aluminium switch gear and knobs are made at the factory.

All I'm saying is that TVR have had the balls to have a go and do things a bit differently from the cynical monoliths like GM. Developing the AJP must have been a massive call. Yes the early ones were flawed, but I think they've got them pretty well sussed these days. You have to remember too they produce plenty horses for the displacement. Light weight, powerful and they sound great thanks to the flat plane crank, Christ, it woes me to think this could come to an end.

You can buy the Vette C5 in the Uk from specialist Vauxhall dealers, but it seems they sold about three last year, even though Car magazine called it a performance bargain, as it's reasonable well priced against the competion, i.e. TVR etc. After a thorough test, they reckonned it was kinda ok, but really not that outstanding, so what was the point of it? Oh, and would you be seen dead in one? was their final comment.

Why can't GM have a go at doing a really hot coop? Actually they did and a total fu ck up it was too: I only need say Holden Monaro.

PS In the context of our debate, the WRX comparision is a bit of a red herring agreed. But it would still make a Vette look ridiculous on a wet and twisty road.

Not surprisingly, I think we find ourselves in a debate that is far more driven by branding than mere facts alone - which is the entire basis of the automobile market.  Therefore, not only do we tenaciously defend our own respective marks to the hilt, but we denigrate others' rides to excess.  (i.e. Ford vs. Chevy, Porsche vs. Ferrari etc.)

Personally, I have driven new TVR and new Corvette.  Both make a fair bit of noise (the TVR was louder), the ride quality of the TVR was Amish and the length of hood of the Vette made me wonder if it was going to actually go in any other direction but straight (which it subsequently did with confidence).  Having said that, it's the same story in a Viper too.  I too don't see a build quality issue with the Vette these days, and it's my impression that the C6 moves the ball further forward.  For those who perceive C5 or C6 to be a car that blasts at excessive speeds in straight lines only, this certainly isn't the case.   Having said that, I've never been in a TVR in anything other than a straight line, so don't know what the handling is like.  Would like to hear others' impressions.

Personally, I'm more about motors that make my willy seem bigger.

I don't think I've ever read such a bunch of (z)arse.
First you say Corvette build quality is crap (which is absolutely not true) and then you say TVR's are lousily built, (which is)
Although owned by GM, the people at Bowling Green KY operate as a distinct entity in their own right. Pride in the product is a very big deal at the plant. Many owners collect their cars at the factory and are the first people to fire up their car, while it's still on the line. They are built with care and it shows.
I have driven a 2002 Tuscan GT. I liked it's wallop, transmission and superb brakes. The controls were sprayed all over the dash, seemingly at random, seat adjustment was poor compared to my car and it oversteered, squatted and tram-lined like a bastard. Road/tyre noise was excessive and the quality of the finish only just acceptable for such an expensive car. I'm not a fan of the body styling - but I respect the fact that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's a different, slightly eccentric car that is difficult to drive fast safely (my limitations, I mean).
By contrast the C5 has more torque, more horsepower (in the case of my car), more equipment, composure and refinement, less irritating noise and weird accoutriments (what is it with those goofy TVR tailpipes - they look like they came off my old Suzuki X7)
The vette is faster, turns in quicker and maintains it's grip longer(thanks to electronic suspension, I'll concede) and stops (just about) as well. But it doesn't rattle, all the panels fit perfectly and has some really nice stuff like dual zone a/c, head-up display, acr, tyre pressure monitoring and a smart exhaust system that adjusts to differing throttle values - and fly-by wire controls.
I didn't call the TVR a kit-car. I used to be a supplier to TVR and understand their manufacturing processes and ethics quite well.
The C5 Corvette was never a big seller in Europe (UK in particular). I bought mine from Bauer Millet in Manchester who are the only official GM dealer in Britain now (I think). The car was very expensive, LHD and somewhat over-the-top for most peoples taste. I bought it for it's performance value for money. At the same time, my employer took delivery of a Ferrari 360 F1 and got quite depressed when he couldn't outrun me.
The Subaru issue is not relevant. I have a close friend in professional sportscar racer Andrew Kirkaldy, who laps Donnington nearly 3secs a lap faster in an Evo 8 than in a 360 F1 - but I think I'd still probably opt for the Ferrari, given the choice.
One last thought - I suspect that you haven't driven a C5 - because I'm sure you would not be so dismissive of it, if you had had a blast in one.  

Oi Nightrider, spoken with all the level headed logic one would come to expect from a single make afficianado.

I'm neutral on this mate, I've never owned either car and don't expect I ever will.  TVRs as I've said all along have some glaring errors. But to suggest that they all total crap and the owners are all w**k*rs is simply stupid and such stereotypical rubbish as to be hardly worth acknowledging.  I suppose all vettes have a spitoon in the centre console, a rifle rack in the trunk and a confed flag on the fender? My slightly dismissive attitude to the Vette was really prompted by your initial comments and thus I guess to some extent we're flamin' each other here dude!

Incidentally, the pushrod, it seems to me, is not being used by GM as an uncompromised engineering solution, as you assert, because thgat would be ridiculous.  But it's a huge compromise forced on some probably pretty talented designers by the 'orrible bean counters at GM HQ. If they were starting absolutely from scratch on a new budget no object, no compromise, cutting edge engine, don't tell me they'd factor in pushrods?

I'm gonna go away and check a few facts out and get back to you. If I can be bothered.

PS Suzuki X7? Now you're talking! What a top piece of tackle that was in it's day.

Posted by: A Zarse
PS Suzuki X7? Now you're talking! What a top piece of tackle that was in it's day.


Ah ,, memories - 1978 , the 1st bike i ever owned

Wow this got a bit feisty.  No doubt out it, some of the most horrendous devices to ever go rolling down the tarmac have come out of Detroit but the Vette isn't one of them.  I don't think GM has ever viewed the Corvette as a cost-no-object supercar.  It doesn't have a status tag attached to it, they're quite common.  Chevy always built it as a solid, American built sportscar that the Average Joe could reasonably afford.  The dude that lives down the street from me has a C-5 as his everyday ride and a 1969 Stingray tucked away in his garage as a weekend toy.  I can assure you that no one who lives on my street is on any kind of Forbes list.
John

Uh, do you think?
I've grown weary of this thread - I'm sure it's run it's course. For the record, the 'official' word on selection of the OHV small-block for the C5 was this.
Research from Corvette owners told GM that torque was prerequisite and the lazy LT1 that powered the C4 had massive stump-pulling ability. The LS1 for the C5 retained the LT's torque curve and also delivered more power and better fuel economy. A low hood-line, giving improved forward visability and lower c of d over the C4 was also deemed necessary. This could not be achieved with the physically more massive DOHC LT5 engine (already in the GM inventory). Another option was the 32v Northstar engine used by Cadillac, but it was deemed too soft.
In reality, the fact that the C5 ever made it into production at all, given the corporate turmoil that existed in GM in the early 90's, is a miracle.
Different strokes for different folks - but the Vette is no weekend cream-puff, a catagory I stll believe the Blackpool Bomber falls squarely into.

This made me laugh!
I must confess to once owning a black '88 IROC Z Camaro.
It had to go when, whilst driving through Bradford city centre, I overheard a kid say, "Look mummy, it's Nightrider!"

This is one of the funniest threads for ages.  ;D  ;D  ;D  Passion rules...

Very true.  My wifes daily driver until 2 years ago was a rather nice black 1998 Chevrolet Camaro with T roofs and all the toys.  Left hand drive in the UK but so what, you can't overtake now anyway  ;)
It certainly wasn't a sportscar in the Vette / TVR mould but it could (just) seat 4, was comfortable and easy to drive and was reasonably fast.  If we want to scare ourselves in a car, we get the cobra out of the garage.

Then the corporate accountants killed off the 'F' body and so the Camaro and Pontiac Firebird were consigned to history.  I know their sales had dropped of, but it would have been nice to still have a cheap, rear drive, V8 powered GM alternative to the Mustang.

Now there's a whole new can of worms.

(http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/2030/vcardenas/mustang.jpg)

I should clarify that when I said the Corvette doesn't have a status tag attached to it, I meant that one doesn't need to be rich/and or famous to get your hands on one.  If you make a solid middle class income and have stashed away a few bucks you can roll off the dealers lot with one of your own.  They certainly have a mystique of their own.
Fax

Steve - shame about the demise of the Transmaro - especially the WS6 and SS. The GTO (Monaro) will probably pick up the slack, once they've ironed the wrinkles out - but at $30K plus, a Mustamg Cobra SVT or Mach 1 seems a much better mechanical package and the Ford is much cheaper to hog-up. What lets the pony down is god-awful interiors and a bodyshell shared with the lowest of the low.
Hi Fax - I think you were right first time. Yes - a Corvette is considerd to be a bit of an American icon, but they are very affordable to buy - particularly as the C6 is upon us. I assure you, you don't have to be any kind of hot-shot to buy one - now running the bastard - that's another issue altogether........  

i was an RD 250/350 LC man there must have been more of those smashed up than any other bike, 500 LC was just a lemon.

Suzzy RG 250 Gamma went well though   :P

Wow, go to work for a while, dont log on and this ....

TVR in my limited knowledge are relaible. I speak of this as my sisters car hasnt EVR broken down, still is in one piece ( despite 2 crashes) and goes like the preverbial.

The car at 170mph felt good, and i am told there was more to go, but i bottled it.

Matt obviously likes his car, and the Vettes are popular in German too, where i believe davis Hasselholf ( Knight Rider ) is a really popular singer

Anyone getting the links.......

The fairest way to settle this is for someone ( ME ) to drive both cars back to back and compare.

Although i am a real patriot , I drive a TRUE British car.

The pointless debate of which is better will always come to down to preferences. I think JORDAN ( the model ) is ugly, all my mates think she's great, etc etc.

I would buy a TVR tomorrow if i could, forget Porkies, Vettes and Red Tarts hand bags ( Fiats ). Its about passion and choise.

I say TVR, and NOTHING will ever change that.

Wet Road + Sub WRX = Old Man driving = Mid Life Crisis = 50mph at best

Now come on Robbo - be reasonable!  I think I could change your attitude with a quick test drive.

wrx are the preserve of the girlfriendless, those who sit on their hand until it goes numb to pretened its someone else.

 

 :o Could not believe my eyes when Top Gear decided it might be a good idea to test the C6 against a TVR350 (amongst other cars) in a straight line last night.
For those who didn't see it, it was magnificent! ;D ;D The vette pulled off the line quickest by far, due to the other 3 cars having initial traction problems. The vette finished 3rd  ;D ;D ;D and the feeling of glee was overwhelming as the TVR went past it (soon after the start) like a train! ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

Argue with that! ;)

Hmmm....
 
Seeing as Matt is a seasoned and highly skilled debater, I think you'll find he won't. But I'd expect a pretty sharp and pithy response if I were you.

How on earth do you work that one out Robbo? You drive a friggin' Honda Civic and as far as I know good ole Soichiro was definitely Japanese.

Andrew -

My car was initially a joint project between Honda - Japan and Rover.

In 2000 / 2001 Peter Stevens re-designed the main bits of the car, Suspension, bodywork, performance tweeks. The Japanesse have now ( 5 months ago ) given up their part of the deal and have reytuened the sole rights to MG R, which makes my car = 100% British

This Anglo/Jap "joint project" thing is played up too much. The car was designed by Honda 100% and on sale in Japan as a Civic a year before it was introduced by Rover. I understand from a very old friend who is quite well in with Rover, the Roverisation process meant little more than recalibrating the suspension, fitting the (quite brilliant) K series engine, working out where to put the plastic wooden door inserts and the choice of velour on the seats. When it was first introduced, it was a thoroughly wretched vehicle. I know, I had one as a company car. Not a patch on the previous two Rover 200's I had.

Stevens redesigned the body kit post BMW and as you say the suspension was tweaked, transforming the vehicle. But I think your car is a diesel, which, (and I stand to be corrected) has a Peugeot engine. The gearbox in the 400/ZS is also built under licence by/from Peugeot.

I understand Honda gave up the design as it is no good to them any more. There have been two generations of Civic since the 400 came on the scene. IMO, the Civic Type R is the epitome of a modern hot hatch. That the ZS is now so good to drive is a testament to the age old British skill of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Robbo, I'm not knocking your choice of car, it has much to commend it, but I can't see that an old Japanese chassis/body, with all major components designed in Japan, a froggy drive train and a mirriad of other more minor components made abroad qualifies it as 100% British.

Just my opinion.

the top gear drag race wouldn't make me change my mind

i think that when you're spending that kind of cash you know what you want and why you want it and what its faults are AND you're prepared to accept them.

In the age of Indepedent MacPherson struts with L-shaped lower arms and telescopic hydraulic dampers with coil springs and anti-roll bar.  
H Shaped flexible torsion beam with hydraulic couplings set at 40º from the x-axis, leaf springs are a novelty, still they appear to work.  


opinions of top gear wouldn't influence my choice nor the choice of many as the one that came last, porsche, outsells just about everything in various guises

likewise the BMW, seen five just today, but on their opinion you wouldn't buy it nor the 407.  

But that's the beauty of what was on Top Gear last night - it wasn't an opinion, it was a race. The product of which was this fact: The TVR goes faster in a straight line. As you rightly say Ron, it's important to go armed with all the important facts when you go shopping.

Wrong, TVRs and Vettes are emotional cars. If you talk about shopping trolleys then facts count.

I thought that's what I said ???

That's alright then.   ;D

Note to self: Read and think before writing.  ::)

i'd still have the TVR over the vette  - but as hgb said and i tried to allude to its down to emotions

but if i had a choice with no spending limit then i'd have an Aston Martin

 

I'm not entirely sure what there is to argue about. There also seem to be a few unknowns - example: over what distance? MN6 C6 isn't launched yet, so either pre-production (hardly representative) or A4 auto - which? Additionally, it's fairly common knowledge that Top Gear hate anything American and make no secret of their bias.
What point are you trying to make here? .....that the 350 is faster in part of a sprint than a C6 that isn't officially launched for another month and will definately have some creases to iron out? (C5 certainly did).
Your patriotic fervour does you credit. Rubbishing a car you don't like is your prerogative. Given that you are now so glee-filled, can we presume that you are now going to go out and buy one, given that it is such an excellent product - or do you just talk the talk?    

As I drive a car with a large capacity engine from General Motors, of a V configuration and 8 cylinders, the valves being actuated by pushrods, I guess it's relatively simple to deduce where my partisanship lies.



(Bear in mind chaps that TVR's of only a few years ago ALSO had engines from General Motors, of a V configuration and 8 cylinders, the valves being actuated by pushrods - the Rover V8 in the Trevs was purchased from Buick after all - another Rover / AN Other joint venture Robbo).

Dave H

I would happliy have a spin in your car. My predeudice with Porsche isnt that something about the car doesnt really interest me, although the new Carrera GT does.

My personal choise would be a TVR, i would love a car like that . I am not interested in a ferrari ( some exceptions ) and i love the thought of buying british.

I was aware that the Rover V8 is a buick design, but it was a good un.

The Engine from my DIESEL MG is an Austin / Cummins or Perkins design - The L Series, heavily re-modded since its days in the Maestro Van !

The gearbox is a rover Design, origionally for the k Series - PG1 is called, Its also in the Landie freelander as is the engine.

Both developed by Powertrain, the transmission dept of MG R.

Although i shouldnt reallty be talking about my glorified shooping cart, its not a sports car, TVR or Vette, and will never sound like a V8, pushrod or not.

It does have Glow Plugs though  ;D

Initially, the Rover V8 is from BMW. Buick took over the design from BMW after WW2.

 ???Woooaaaahh! I've not rubbished anything (except certain aspects of the TVR), and wouldn't do so just because I didn't like it! I put my half-penny worth in a couple of pages back, and have since been a mere observer while the debate raged on between your good self and my team mate Andy (very entertaining, btw).
This TopGear dragrace - I believe it was a quarter of a mile - seemed to contradict some of the points made in this thread. A common claim seems to have been that the vette is built for straight line speed but can't turn corners, while the TVR is the opposite. However true this maybe for previous models, topgear may just have proved a break in the trend. Not only did the TVR win the drag race, but around their test circuit, it was the vette which was the quicker (by 0.7secs). The guys on topgear even praised it up, saying that it really could go round corners well.
Seemed a fair test to me, as I can't see how you can improve significantly on a pre-production model with less than a month to it's release date.
As for buying one or the other, sadly I can only afford to 'talk the talk'. My first choice would definately be TVR (cerbera speed6, please), and I won't say I'd never consider a vette, but I'd have to get really, really, REALLY p!ssed off with Trev first. I dare say it's possible...

I'm sure my maniacal defense has lead me to be a little brusque and over-protective. I apologise if I've overstepped the mark.
I cannot vouch for the C6 because I have yet to drive one - I would however re-iterate that Chevrolet do take a while to get a new incarnation of a Corvette running right. 97 and 98 C5's had a slew of development issues, the remedies of which made the car significantly better - and added 5 bhp.
I'm not very familiar with the TVR 350, it was released after I left the UK. The TVRs I have driven didn't quite do it for me - and one or two scared me.
I guess the question is, if push came to shove, given the right circumstances, would you buy one. For me, spooning out the kind of money that TVRs, Corvettes and the like cost, you need to be totally happy with the package. For my requirements, the Vette delivered more than the Tuscan (for me, that is...)

 ;)

Not sure where you get that idea from HGB, the 'Rover' V8 was designed by Buick in the late fifties and first fitted in '62.
The entire tooling rights were bought by Rover's then MD William Martin-Hurst and so the legend was born.


http://austinrover.mg-rover.org/index.htm?engineroverv8f.htm.

Oh and PS, The Vette is nice but the new Mustang is nicer ;) ;)

Steve TTTD

Lucky you survived, that single tube downframe flexed like hell, a throw back to the Kwaka H1 and 2 days when bikes wouldn't go round corners. It even got bad press from the road testers. Wicked in a straight line though ; 8)

You're right mate, nearly as bad as riding on the old FVQ dampers on the Hondas of the day. For those unaware FVQ was reckonned to stand for Fade Very Quickly... :(

Oh and weren't the Kwaker triples housed in a twin tube duplex cradle? Should have been better than it was.

Yep they should have been, if the frame wasn't made of chocolate. The S frame on the 250/350/400 was a lot better, contary to folklore the S's and KH's handled quite well for the time, although riding my 250 straight after the Monster is a bit of a 25 year culture shock.

saying nothing!!How can i defend myself Matt?

Hey PM, was wondering where you'd been!

You got the new block in? Looks wicked! How does she go now or are you still running her in?

PS Note to Matt. Hasselhoff is in the UK at the mo, caught him on brekky telly this week. You'll be pleased to learn he's making a new Nightrider film. Didn't mention what car he's gonna use but it will still be called Kit. Also did you know the bloke who originally did the voiceover for Kit was actually the actor who played the pathology assistant to Quincy? You live and learn.

Hi Andy, not sure how I got this far through my life not knowing the identity of the talking Trans Am's voice. Thank you for answering that burning question. It has always tormented me.
Good work PM - looks the bollox - those seats are the sh*t too - awesome job!
A Subaru WRX would piss all over you on a wet, winding road though - yoa are aware of that aren't you? (Assuming you hadn't blown him into the ditch at the off, of course)
Consider a re-name to Hi-Powermite.

Excellent PM.
Is it time we all owned up now?

My turn ;)

1976 Pontiac 400

Matt, you're not alone on this one. My industry spies tell me that no less a company than Ford agree with you!

One of the guys who comes to LM with us is a senior engineer at Ford. I have it on very good authourity from him that the boffins in the RS division have come to the conclusion that Audi and it's Quattro concept were way, way off the mark when they blitzed the rally world 25 years ago. No, they were shocked to discover that what you need for the absolute best traction on snow, gravel, wet, slippery tarmac etc is not 4x4, my goodness me no. Front engine rear/drive is apparently the way ahead.

So they are canning the Focus WRC car and bringing out a whole new jitney thing. I'm very lucky to be able to post a scoop picture of the new concept car under developement. I understand that Subaru and Mitsubishi are carefully considering their positions too.

PS Matt you really shouldn't mention wet roads to PM. Ask him about the legendary "Brown Trouser Incident" at PQ two years ago. For some inexplicable reason, the car spun on this wet road....

An entertaining thread lads, I only wish I'd picked it up earlier.
Realistically though, I doubt whether I'm in the market for a TVR/vette. But if I was..............I think I'm on Matts side on this one. 30K might look like good value for a car that looks and goes as good as a TVR, but that 30K would start to look more and more expensive each time a piece fell off. I have this mental image of me starting out from home on a nice long drive in my shiny new TVR and arriving at my destination looking like a character from a Buster Keaton movie, sitting on the back axle, with no bodywork left and clinging on to the unattached steering wheel, face blackened and hair standing on end. Besides, the vette looks pretty good to me, and to prove God is on my side (for it was indeed a message) as I drove down the high street last night there was a vette, seemingly identical to the one in Mr Harpers avatar, parked up and looking very mean. They're not as big as you think you know.
As a slight aside, when I was returning from an early nineties LM I bumped into (and I stand to be corrected on the spelling) John Marigoldelettsi, or maybe Magnetosphere. Without checking, I think he had been in charge of the ill-fated BRM entry. He was driving a beautiful C5 (or at least whatever it was in the early nineties, C4?) and it was RHD! I suppose the conversion could have been a Saturday morning job for the boys in the workshop.
I'm in and out of Florida next month, and nothing would give me greater pleasure (well actually, there are quite a few things, but the batteries seem to have died again) than taking Matt up on his offer, but work is work I suppose.
PM she's a brute! Do you have an unofficial arrangement with the local speed enforcement cameras?
H

Now then Harry,
Let me know where you're going to be.
Petit Le Mans is on September 25th
I'll be leaving Orlando on Friday 24th mid-morning and blazing up I-75.
Meeting Dave and Fax in Atlanta (they're driving down from Indiana) on Friday evening. We'll book a HoJo or similar in the environs of Buford/Lawrenceville GA and partake of a few sherbets.
I'd rather hotel it on the Sat night too, but we're taking tents, on the off-chance that we're too banjaxed to drive, after ther race. Would also afford the opportunity to enjoy Canada Phil's hospitality.
Thump-it back down to O'town on Sunday 26th - should be home in time for tea. You're welcome, if you can wangle it.
It's a great race, awesome circuit and quite an amusing weekend.

Andy! An absolute belter of a car! before I got bitten by yank iron and after I'd got fed-up of getting piss-wet through and falling off motorcycles, I had an RS1600 Escort Mk 2. It was wonderful. I'd wanted an RS2000 (droop-snoot), but the OHC 1600, complete with 4 branch and twin-choke was boss in my neighborhood. Mine was white with a black vinyl roof, tennis racquet head restraints - the lot. I thought I was Stig Blomqvist!

So did thousands of other callow youths too! I was more a Paddy Hopkirk myself. Though I had my hot Mins well after the Cooper S glory days, I used to reckon I could give a hottish Escort a good go on anything other than a dead straight road. Then when I rally preped an Alfasud 1.5Ti, I became a bit of a Louise Aitken-Walker (who won the Coup des Dames on the Monte in 1983). I had trouble fitting into the overalls.

Most of the muppets round by us (Welsh borders) had Escort 1300 GL's with about two dozen spot lights bolted on the front; it looked like they'd crashed into Halfords front window. And the Escort Kids (local parlance; they all looked and talked exactly like Gwydaff Evans) were no match for my mum's Citroen GSX...

But no messin', the RS's were iconic cars of the time and I still stop to look if I see one today. My old mate Bill Donaldson, God rest his soul, had perhaps the finest example it's ever been my pleasure to go in, and boy could he drive it too. I sometimes get a mad urge to buy one even now, there's something to do with a surfeit of power over grip that is irresistable.