Club Arnage

Subject:        A query
   Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:10:45 EST
   From:        ACHoncho@aol.com

Dear Dave,

I wonder if you or your contacts, would know, or a know someone who does know, or suggest a a source, to answer a question that has been buggung me for some time,

A few "LM 24's" back, I heard a discussion on "Radio Le Mans" at the circuit on right-hand v. left-hand drive winning cars.

I subsequently exchanged emails with John Hindaugh and Don Baker but the matter was never resolved.

Any ideas please?

ys

Tony Crane

Wakefield Yorkshire.

Tin top cars have a better balance being left hookers as thats they way they are designed , and weights calculated. The open cars always seem to be fairly central , apart from the odd Panoz .

WRC , BTCC , ETCC , everything is left hand drive. GTS , GT's

The only exception is the Caterham racing series , but then on one cares really.....

I presume thats the question , as i cant remember hearing the Radio conversation .

Tony, I'm a little concerned. If you've been buggung for some time now, then quite frankly things are looking pretty bleak.
I would suggest some engrailing.
Although there is an element of luck required during this procedure (a regular correspondant is always asking me if I've had any luck engrailing it). The consequences of no luck, and presumably failure, just don't bare thinking about.
As for the merits of left or right hand drive, I'm afraid I can't help you there, but to be honest, unless you sort some engrailing out sharpish, you're not going to be in a position to sit anywhere mate.
H

It probably also depends of clockwise and anticlockwise of the track, if the inner track is left or right  ???

I thought it always ran clockwise??  Has it been run round the other way at any time then??

All tracks run clockwise , except a few in Aussie that i am aware of.

How about Daytona then?????  ;D

And some others in other countries that i cant think of at the moment


( covers all angles now , i think.. )

And (just while I'm catching up on missed posts) Interlagos and Laguna Seca.

...... and Riverside?

At risk of further confusing the debate, what happens when you pitch the Mclaren F1 into the original enquiry?

Robbo's right - Aussie tracks run counter-clockwise (well, Mt. Panorama and Phillip Island do) - is it something to do with the water going down the plug-hole in the opposite direction?

and just to add in

Left Hand drive cars have better balance.

right hand drive cars are naturally un-balanced as the initial designs for cars are for left hookers.


Looked through books on the clockwise thing, Still No answer, maybe its a choice thing ?

Here in the States most of the road courses run Euro-wise (counter-clockwise) but of course the ovals are counter.  Hence the anti neck muscle-stretching devices attached to most Champ Car drivers shoulders & helem'ts (that and that fact that they're pulling enough G's to have them on the verge of blacking-out at a places like Indy, MIS and Fontana.
John

Oh sh*t!  Mean't clockwise....Have another Coors John!

Is the balance thing the reason that all rally cars are left hookers?

If so are UK built cars like TVR at Le Mans Right hand drive, I suppose that this would upset the balance if you made a left hooker?

Rally - Yes

TVR - Yes as well ( its designed RHD )

Although i am no expert

Just to add my tuppence or Lira, cars designed as left hookers without doubt drive and handle better than ones even built in the factory as a RHD.  Only speaking from practical experience, of course.  I'm sure there some very sound reasons why.

This raises an interesting issue with regard to left hookers which are designed and built as such, do they drive any differently on say Italian or British roads?

I'm at a loss to understand why a LHD car would be better balanced or handle better than a RHD one. Why would it make any difference?
I drove several LHD cars in UK, including my current ride.
My Corvette handles, grips, accelerates and stops just as well in Britain as it does here - why would it be any different?
The only real issue is overtaking on single carriageway roads (just like the run down to LM for 99.9% of British drivers). Even this is a minor problem if you have enough torque to haul ass when the need arises.  

Yes, I must admit I walked away from this one scratching my head. As far as I know the laws of physics are the same on both sides of the car, assuming the weight distribution is the same, then it'll handle the same.
Mind you, after a close call with a scalpel once, I'm very protective of my left bollock, and I can see how in moments of stress my left shoulder might drop first. But surely it's not the same for everyone!?
H

iT ONLY MATTERS IF YOU ARE TURNING LEFT AFTER LEAVING A FRENCH BAR AND MEETING UP WITH A GREAT DUTCHMAN!!!! DID THE FACT THAT THE JAG WAS A RIGHT HOOKER ALTER THE EFFECT OF THE IMPACT.
PXXXXXX

H, for a man of youre standing  you should have thought about this. Not all engines and engine bays are of equal weight, due to sumps, etc and the different position of the steering rack.

No replies about racks please!!

Oh thanks for the tunes, i have another 7 versions of that 1 tune, all ready for the arrival on MB !!!!

Well, no...
Maybe in pre-Cortina days the designers didn't give it too much thought, but these days any race/sports car designer worth his socks is going to make sure that the battery, alternator, washer bottle, thermidor and colostomy bag don't all end up on the same side of the car. Achieving an equal balance at each wheel must run pretty high up on their priorities at the design stage. (Remember that the Japs are rhd too, and that's not a small market)
I can't believe a car leaves the factory or workshop with a natural tendency to spin in one particular direction. Unlike that tw*t in number 10.
H

Steady On H. I think The President and the rest of The TW*TS might be a tad upset with you associating them with the *@$% in No. 10.   ;D

H - I'm sure Robbo is just f**k*ng with us. Can you imagine a road or race car manufacturer shrugging their shoulders and saying, "It's going to handle like sh*t, but there's just no place else to put this bloody steering rack".
Key elements, as I (marginally) understand the science are unsprung weight, weight distribution, centre of gravity, steering castor angle, toe-in/out, suspension compression/rebound/damper rate, rolling resistance, squat/dive and traction control.
Weight distribution - the centre of mass is most often vaunted as the  key criteria (50-50 front to back) however, lateral distribution is a factor and some designers have been quite clever in compensating.
My cars computer compensates for the weight of the driver when solo, by shifting fuel from one tank to the other (not sure it makes a whole lot of difference with a fat twat like me) which is probably more gimmick than function, but it corners flat right up to the point it breaks traction - and even then it stays composed as it crashes.
Front/rear weight distribution is helped by having the transmission in the rear, as opposed to behind the motor (makes the footwells bigger too).

Blimey Matt, it sounds like your car is a good deal cleverer than most of the people I know. Over the months you have made me re-evaluate my opinions of American sports cars. There is a garage specialising in US cars just a few mile from me, and suddenly, the odd C5s he gets in are starting to look like remarkably good value.
Just to illustrate that us Brits also have a few tricks up our sleeves: Jaguars answer to compensate for the weight of the driver in the racing Mark 2's was to put the battery in the boot, in the diagonally opposite corner, next to the fuel pump...
H

Just to throw some right-hand/left-hand stuff into the mix, anyone ever noticed that all Porker protos are right-hand drive coming from a left-hand drive country?

908s, 917s, 936s, 956s, 962s and 911 GT1-98s all right-hookers. Even Gilles' compatriots got in on the act with the Renault-Alpine A442s and the Matra-Simcas, the Rondeaus, the list goes on .......................

Rick,
I recall reading that at some stage in past the ACO rules specified rhd, although I've never been able to confirm this. Why this would be, I'm not sure, but it would explain why most of the protos used to be rhd (and they had to have nominal room for a passenger, and possibly a pig, and six chickens in the back..)
H

I would be kidding you and myself to suggest that American sports cars are all good - I've had a long-standing love affair with yank iron and owned a few down the years. The C5 is without a shread of doubt, the best bang for the buck available anywhere - but is flawed in some respects. The interior is a bit cheap, but equipment levels (head-up display, dual zone climate control, Active ride, ASC, Bose sound system and power everything) compensates. Early C5's had a few teething troubles in terms of build quality - and I expect the C6 will have too, but overall, it is the most capable car I have owned and I have never regretted choosing it.
A lot of people are fazed by expectations of high running costs and depreciation and lack of service back-up. When I ran the car in UK, buying petrol and tyres hurt, but everything else was cheaper than the Audi and Range Rover that preceded it.
Anyone who is after eyeball flattening performance and is in the market for a good spec 3 series BMW (pricewise) and didn't need the rear seats would be foolish not to consider a Corvette - even if it is a bit ostentatious. Anyone who buys a TVR is either seriously mentally retarded, or didn't compare it to a 'Vette.
I know a guy in England who's about to be relocated to New Jersey and has been offered the equivilant of $37,500 for his '98 C5 Coupe. He can replace it with a 2002 Corvette ZO6 and have change. I wish I'd done that with hindsight - the ZO6 is a 405bhp missile.
The current Viper is also very, very good (though more expensive than  C5) and (dare I say it) even a little over-powered. Aside from the exotics (Saleen, Callaway, Mosler and Lingenfelter) mass produced American sports cars are fast, but not particularly good drivers cars - the Ford Mustang Cobra is awful - like sh*t off a shiny shovel in a straight line, but otherwise piss-poor.
Never chop in that Jag, but you should go and have a look at a C5 next time you're passing, they're not to be sniffed at.

Oi Paula! - watch it!
Ok, I'm not sure the rhd made much difference, unless of course the weight of the 5amp fuse in the radio upset the balance, but it was the airbag that really saved my bacon.
He prefers to be called Uncle Albert, but he'll get used to 'Airbag'.
I know LM's getting close, it's a sign, just like the first swallow of summer (now now), the sight of Albert polishing his rifle and muttering about The Hun means that he suspects a channel crossing is imminent. Personally I always think he's pleasantly surprised when we say we're nearly on the ferry, I'm sure he's genuinely relieved when he realises he's going to have a nice afternoon on the briny and not going to be pushed out of the back of a Lancaster at four thousand feet with false papers.
We're trying to get him to bring his penny farthing this year, that'll be a riot on the way to Arnage alright...
H

I have said it before but obviously you guys don't remember. Prototype sports cars run on Road Courses
and most of the world's road courses have more right hand turns then left hand turns so positioning the driver on the inside for most turns is favoured.
Road cars are full of compromises and anyway  most drivers would not notice the difference.
Peugeot 404 steering wheel is angled slightly to the right in right hand drive cars.
Renault 5  wheel base is different from left side to right side.
Porsche Boxster has a perfect 50/50 fore and aft balance.

Matt, the garage up the road has just passed the £/L barrier, that's pain alright.

Can any of our French correspondents let us know what the rate is in France? I think I'm going to have to buy a new plastic hose and bottle of mouthwash.

H

Diesel was about 80c Euro's and I think the petrol was around 95c Euro's a Litre.

Autoroutes were about 3-5c Euro's more than the back road stations.

H - it's terrible here an'all - $2 per gallon, it's outrageous! That's just over a quid - it's abloody scandal, I'm telling you!

I saw on the TV a few weeks ago that the americans are currently buying small econimical cars because of the fuel prices. Hopefully the UK will be able to drop to £1.20 per Gallon!

That's right. My sister-in-law's new Jeep only has a 4.2 litre lump!

Fuel is a lot cheaper at the hypermarket  petrol stations.
But check that it's not a automated one, because the machines don't usually work with UK credit cards.

...and where the petrol stations say 24 x 7, that is often only for automated sales which, as Barry rightly says, often will not cope with our credit cards.

I always fill up on arrival, but if you might need a top up on Sunday on the way back, just stop at the first open place you see cos there's a good chance it might be a long way to the next one.

I wonder whether this will still be the case. I believe the reason before was because France have operated the Chip and Pin system for the last few years whereas we didn't. So if you have a new Chip and Pin card might it now work??

Maybe, but the Carrefour pumps still say French cards only...

It would be far to sensible for the UK and the French banks to use the same system, they wouldn't be able to justify what they charge their customers, which would result in a dip in their outrageous profits.

Too bl**dy right Smokie.  We were on the sniff of the stuff before we found a petrol station on Sunday last year.  Bl**dy scary, it was that close.

be careful with petrol prices which have really increeased since last year !!  :(

I was over at Pre-Qual, those were not last years prices.

Hi Gilles, What are fuel prices this week in Le Mans ?
Canada Phil

Fuel prices yesterday in Spain were 0.89 euros per litre of unleaded


In France that was between 1.03 euros and 1.07 per litre.

Portugal was 1.15 euros per litre. OUCH


Thats NORMAl unleaded, not super 98 octane stuff.