Club Arnage

I'm I a bit of a quandary at the moment  I seek your collective wisdom.

Since my trip to Le Mans Classic in 2010 in my old Alfa, I've been hankering after something to use for such occasions in the future. I still have a Giulia, but as its being rebuilt as a race car, a trip to Le Mans looks unlikely. I've got the Jensen sat in the workshop too, but to be honest I have never really bonded with it. 180 miles in five years tells me that its a car I'm not excited by. That leaves me with just the Landy, which I dearly love, but a trip to Le Sarthe would be a long and tiring journey. It's this reason, more than any other that I didn't make it to LM this year. That's something I don't want to repeat. It needs sorting.

So, over the last few months I've been trying to decide what car to go for next. I've spent hours on the net, eBay etc looking at different options. My taste at the moment is early 1960's, simple clean lines, maybe without a roof. This car doesn't have to be practical.

There's a few nice cars that have caught my eye around town of late. A scruffy (but obviously hot- rodded) TR3a that goes like stink, and a really clean, early Sprite. So I'm leaning towards something late 50's, early 60's, probably British, probably open topped. But....

I'm sick of chasing rust. I do it for a living. Storing cars in winter is a pain, the salt kills them, you can't win. Most of the Brit cars from this era are a little short on legs too. It has to be fast and reliable enough for high speed runs down to the ferry port.

So long legs, reliability and a lack of rust rules out some of the obvious choices such as a Big Healy. They are a bit old man-ish too. A battered AC Ace would be pretty cool, but they have all been restored to death and have crazy price tags to match. I don't want one that much. E-Types are not anywhere near the list because I just don't like them enough (and they are horrible to work on).

I'm pretty stuck.

So I started looking at replicas. A GT40 would be good, but in everyday traffic you would look like a bit of a twat. Plus I've seen a billion 18" wheeled Gulf painted cars over the years that have kinda spoiled things (Paint them Linden Green and run painted wires folks if you want to look cool). A Beck Porsche 904 would be lovely, but very pricey and a very long lead time. These don't exactly tick the 'Brit sportscar' box either.

A Cobra replica?? Mmmmmm. Again, too many cartoon versions with huge exhausts and massive split rim wheels and low profile tyres. Impressive, but not for me. C and D type replicas are just too expensive.

Then I thought about the baby Cobra. The slab side 289. The ultimate Q car. Dainty British roadster, curves in the right places, restrained, skinny wire wheels and a big filthy American truck engine up front trying to pull the whole show apart.

I looked at the Gerry Hawkridge 289 kit and did a bit of research. I've fancied one in the past, got the brochure, phone calls and emails, lists, budgets, etc  but didn't get any further.

 I think I have issues with the term 'kit car'.

Am I just a snob? Should the fact it's a replica put me off? Should I just cut my cloth accordingly and not by a fake and accept I'll never afford the original?

It would be a good choice for what I want from it, and it would be fun to build a new car from scratch without all the usual pain of restoring some clapped out rusty hulk only to see it rust away again.

Or should I just grow up and buy a sensible German estate car?

Help me. It's less than a year to the next LM, so I need to get cracking.

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/Dr_S/null_zps2defd2f1.jpg)

(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/Dr_S/null_zps33004ed2.jpg)

I'm with you Si, or at least I have been, and may be again.

I no longer really need a 5 seat 4 door classic, and I've put few miles on it this last 3 years or so. But what's the alternative? A lot of the alternatives were affordable when I bought it 25 years ago, but appreciation seems to be a very fickle and unpredictable thing, and anything I fancy seems to have appreciated through the roof.

I remember turning down a very good C type replica (kit-car...) about 6 or 7 years ago, and I really wish I'd gone for it now, but like you can't really say "replica" without barking "kit-car" straight after. Maybe its an age thing, I grew up before the word 'replica' was coined in the car world, - apart from maybe along with Fraser Nash', but that's different. Some of the kits on the road in the 80s and 90s were real shockers. A VW based Ferrari GTO anyone? Or perhaps a Cortina based Cobra?

As far as word association goes for me, "replica" is closely followed by 'glass fibre', 'jag diff', 'leaks', 'drum brakes' and 'failed MOT'. And of course 'arse' and 'drink', but they're associated with most words, I think. And possibly 'cheap porn under the passenger seat'. I don't know if that's been a snob or not, or just a purist. Maybe 'awkward b$stard'.

But times, and prices, are changing. And I'd like to think that quality of vision and workmanship has moved on too. If I did go down that route, I think I'd be looking for things like continuity of the mechanicals (Cortina- right out) and accuracy of the dimensions most of all. I'm no expert, but it seems that the 'replica' market is really diverse now, from cheap glass fibre knock offs to top quality stuff that costs almost as much as the real thing. At least there's now a chance of seeing some art and craftsmanship in the product, which was missing a few years ago.

Personally, I wouldn't rule it out, but would try and keep it simple.

H

Replicas have a place and they are a bit of fun, but if you own one you'll hate having to admit all the time that it is what it is.

The cheapest and most accessible of cars with a 1960's Le Mans racing heritage is the little Mini Marcos. Best placed British car to finish in 1966 and still the only Marcos to go the distance despite many Marcos GT attempts. OK it is a bit of an ugly duckling, but it can be forgiven for that. You can still find a fixer-upper around £3000 and being GRP monocoque chassis no rust-buckets!

Firstly, grow up? Never!  Buy a Sensible car? Never!

Rubbish Replicas or Kit Cars , are just that, rubbish.

Why build a cobra kit out of a MGB, just put a decent V8 into the MGB and have a nice Q car.

But, a well executed, replica of, say, a GT40, with a proper Ford V8 and period colour scheme does look the bees knees I must say and I would have no problem owning or driving one (apart from lack of space and more importantly money).

For me it depends on what you start with and what you end up with, and how close it is to the original in both concept and looks.  If the real car has a V8 then so should the replica, even better if it's from the same manufacturer too.

The fact is, and using the GT40 as an example again, not many of us could ever afford an original, so why not have a replica, only true petrol heads will know or care.

Thanks for the input. Couple of points....

Mini Marcos? Have you been sniffing brake cleaner again? Ugly, slow, dangerous, rusty subframes... The only car that gets a safety car escort whilst racing at LM Classic. A big no.

V8 powered MGB? They struggle to handle the 4 pot never
Ind a proper V8. I had a B V8 about 12 years ago and sold it a week after a year long restoration. See also comments on 'rust' and 'reliability'.

I think H has hit the nail square on the head. The 1980's. Magazines full of unfinished Cobra replicas for sale fitted with chromed up Pintos (with shagged cam shafts), funny things that took the worst parts of a mini metro and a greenhouse and morphed into something that kids threw potatoes at as it sat stranded beside the road. It was a bad time for replicas and I can't get that out of my head.

Build standard can make a big difference though. I've seen some pretty good examples over the years, but there's always something not quite right. Saw a cracking Cobra last year. Looked really good until you started looking under wheel arches only to find unfinished fibre glass (a couple of coats of stonechip and some satin black would have made all the difference.

Another factor is budget. You could build a cracking 289 Cobra for the price of an average GT40 replica. It would have to be right. As for original components, again it would need to be as close as possible- no Rover V8s here (although there is one going into the Land Pig in the next few weeks).

I just can't shake the stigma of 'kit car'.

I fully understand your type of dilemma having suffered similar pains for years.

IMO my opinion I have never seen a kit car design I want to own, or for that matter even be driven in. Perhaps the exception being nicely done Cobra look a like.

A replica car I do see as different though - where it is a recreation - eg c and d type replicas and westfield X1 then I have and still do ponder on whether to take the plunge. For me it would have to built properly for which I figure we are talking big money even to do one yourselves - eg £20 - 22k for a Westfield X1 and £30-35k for a c-type for which it would still be fibre glass and never the real Mcoy. And it would take hours and hours on getting all the fiddly bits done correctly, to research, find , fettle and fit. I guess a budget for a GT40 replica would approach £40k all in. Please comment if you think these numbers are off

So if you are talking £20k - £35k for your toy plus hours to get it right then for that money you could buy a good restored classic or even a modern flying machine, which is where I struggle. I have never spent more than 15K on a car ever and would struggle to justify spending any big sums more than that to my wife. And I would hate to see my modern car choice depreciate away. So I then think the way for me to go is start on a sensible budget eg £10k and find the type of classic car that I enjoy (unrestored / needing work) and then restore and improve it over the years.

And then I realise that I have such a car already that is finished and in great condition , ticks all my boxes and ready to be used - but I don't use it now like I used to  - so do I really want a new toy car ? - or just want to continue dreaming that one day I could have a alloy c type, a 60's Aston or other classic exotica from Britain or Italy ?

So I think for the moment I will continue to be a dreamer and not feel embarrassed by it and satisfy my urge by reading magazines off the middle shelf at WH Smith

For you though Si - go with what you really want to do - you know more than enough about cars to make the right choice for you.
 
One thing worthy of note (the rest of my comments above are just ramblings) is that this year for the first time on all of my trips to Le Mans  I never worried about my car. Didn't have the nagging doubts of what might go wrong, didn't imagine what each "noise" might be leading up to etc didn't have any carbs to adjust or exhausts to rehang. In fact I didn't even lift the bonnet - a 2007 S2000 which is my main daily driver now and combines my needs for modern, efficient transport in a sporting and interesting package.

TR's

If you want to go the classic rather than replica route.

All but the 7 imho look good and you don't see alot around.

The 289 does look very sweet,  but could you love it if you know it's not quite the real thing?

or how about something like this?


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271236048579?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I'm not so troubled by the 'fake' thing in itself, rather than the association with cortina based shite from my youth. I don't care what other people think too much either. I'm more concerned about it looking true to what it is supposed to be, how it drives, the performance, fitting the brief of what I want in a car etc.

I've done the classic car thing to death and I'm tired of the rust and the never ending chase for perfection (Dave's Lotus is as pretty close as you can get to absolute perfection, yet I know he's always pulling something apart and fettling). That's why I love my Landy. It's knackered, leaks everywhere, the paint is falling off, everything rattles and shakes and groans and I'm OK with it, I don't get depressed or attempt to fix anything.

GT40 gets mentioned again. I've looked at the Tornado version in the past, and although its generally accepted as the best replica to build, it's still not right- the exposed parts of the chassis in the engine bay just don't look right and would drive me tits. That's extra time and money to get something looking more authentic, yet it would still not be perfect.

I like the Westfield Eleven too, but although I said practicality wasn't important, the Eleven isn't the kind of thing I would like to drive 1100 miles to Le Mans in (even if it had luggage space and somewhere to put Fran and her bloody chair).

I keep coming back to the Hawkridge 289.

That's the worst part of both options. A 'classic' 'kit car'. All the hassle and the stigma.

To be fair, the badly lashed together one that your friends take to Le Mans has put me off owning one too. ;D

All the same comments apply to the Mini Cooper, except that it was never entered at Le Mans, let alone finished. The MM was faster and lighter.

People make their minds up about the Mini Marcos purely on looks, then make up reasons to hate it.

Don't forget the real thing.  MGRV8, Morgan, TR4/5/6.  They will go up in value.  Or rebuild a TVR if you enjoy a challenge

If you go the kit route, then a Cobra takes some beating and most would prefer a soft top.  I don't think crate Corvette (LS2/3) motors are too expensive for the power, and/but are fuel injection.  I had a good look at the Sumo (as in "A Car is Born") factory a few years back.  Don't.  GDs are good, but a backbone chassis.

The Mini Marcos or Midas as it became isn't bad, but its small, with an even smaller and outdated engine

Good luck

I don't mind the looks really. You can't call it anything other than butt ugly, but there's more to a girl than a pretty face. I've had a few Coopers in my youth, and I shudder to think what would have happened in an accident.

I've had enough challenges Lorry. The next classic I restore will be a nice Norwegian Folkboat or a Cornish Lugger.

As for motive power, if its a Cobra it will have to be a proper 289ci Ford. Not even the 302 will do. ;)

As you'll see from my name, I own replicas, and to date have owned four in total. There is no shame or stigma in owning one in my book - at least as long as it is a brave attempt to make it as close to the original. Your mention of the 289 bears out my thoughts exactly. The later AC's aren't anywhere like a big or small block, but carry the AC name as another example. I have owned two Lynx D-types which while not mechanically correct (IRS for example) are seriously correct in hand-beaten alloy as regards dimensions and shape, whereas if one looks at the RAM fibreglass car the rear fin is horizontal and not sloping. I built a replica of the 1952 Le Mans C-type (which hadn't existed since 1952) just since I thought it should exist as part of Jaguar history. I was called stupid to do it, but it was invited to both the Festival and the Revival since Lord March takes the enlightened view that if none of the originals exist, then a proper FIA-papered copy can be invited. It was a great honour. I now have a Lynx XKSS with the others sold by the way.

I am amongst the 99.99% of this world who will never be able to buy a real D-type or C-type, and looking at the market I need a quick injection of at least £4 million just to buy the Ecurie Ecosse D-type that is now on the market. I wrote for years the Replica part of the JDC, and always signed off with "drive the dream", for that is what it will always be and it is how I live it. People talk about values, but the price of a good C-type replica is around £100,000 and the one-off I built is now on the market at £300,000, so don't say replicas don't go up in value. In 1998 I failed to buy a Lynx XKSS at £35,000; there were 11 made, and the last one sold for £235,000. Not bad for "rubbish".

But to hell with it, I still have a grin from ear to ear when I drive it, and that's the point. Go for it and enjoy.

 I know what happens  -   RIP Charlie, Ace, Steve n Rocky

(Charlie incidentally being the only boyfriend of mine that my mum liked... even though he was an utter villain - but he sure knew how to charm the ladies!)   ;D

A beautiful, rare, reliable and impressive open top British 60's classic on a budget is a bit of a tall order. A real one rather than replica makes it even more difficult. On a tight schedule... next to impossible

Someone has to win the lottery though, and you may hit the jackpot anyway, I hope you beat the odds and find what you are looking for.

That's it. End of the debate. :D

ENCOURAGEMENT

Woodcote Goodwood

(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u216/lynxd67/D%20type/Goodwood2004Lowres.jpg) (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/lynxd67/media/D%20type/Goodwood2004Lowres.jpg.html)
Thursday afternoon 24 hours
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Montlhery with the C-type
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u216/lynxd67/C%20type%20build%20photos/Banking.jpg) (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/lynxd67/media/C%20type%20build%20photos/Banking.jpg.html)
Moloja in the Alps
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You really won't enjoy it at all  ;D

I built my Dax cobra replica from 1995 to 1997 and it still sits in my garage, waiting to blast down the road.  It has a sensible 6.6 litre V8, a traditional 4 speed gearbox, bombproof Jaguar XJS brakes and suspension .... and has been known to scare the willies out of passengers (and the driver!).

I don't do a huge amount of miles in it, but it has effortlessly got me to Le Mans about 8 times, plus many UK road trips.  As a weekend toy / occasional cross channel tourer, it does it for me.

When I built it, I deliberated avoided making it a bling palace whilst resisting the urge to make a slavish 'copy' of the real thing (whatever that is).  If you don't like the words replica or kit car, use 'recreation'.  When people ask me what it is, I tell them it's a Dax.

And as for earlier comments regarding poor handling, dodgy brakes, rubbish etc - welcome to the 21st century people.  Thanks to the SVA / IVA test, those back of the garage 'specials' are a thing of the past.

Finally, for an independent view on what it's like around a track, have a word with Fran, Smokie or Andy Z who have all tested the passenger seat at the RAF Marham track day.

Here she is - 

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7288/9360367228_a3887dfa47_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111644@N00/9360367228/)
RAF Marham MAR-1005-05-OUT-UNC-103 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111644@N00/9360367228/) by Steve Brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/13111644@N00/), on Flickr

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/9360366586_2b44cdc755_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111644@N00/9360366586/)
TRACK DAY AT RAF MARHAM (http://www.flickr.com/photos/13111644@N00/9360366586/) by Steve Brown (http://www.flickr.com/people/13111644@N00/), on Flickr

Audi A4 Avant mate... you know you want to... ;D ;D

Actually I like the MGBRV8, think that is what it is called

>Martini...LB

Well, I'm a wee bit loser to my choice. I'm going down to the Croft Nostalgia Weekend next Saturday to have a look at the 289 Register's stand. I'm already penning out a spec and rotting up a budget.

No doubt ill have a thousand silly questions for you Steve,, but first off, what engine and box are you running? And who built your engine and to what spec?

Some great pix there Mr Lynx, they capture the classic jag ethos very smartly. I'll be down in your neck of the woods in a few weeks, which I'm (sort of) looking forward to, as it's been 3 years or so since I was last down to LM. I'll also be getting to go round the circuit, which on the face of it sounds great, but on the arse of it, really doesn't:

http://www.24heuresvelo.fr/en/24-HOURS-CYCLING-RACE-7.htm

Anyway, here's a pic to dovetail Steve's and yours nicely.

You've got me hooked Si, keep us up to date!

H

Never forget it Steve. It was a bit faster than the Commer, though perhaps not as noisy.

I'll also never forget going round with BigH, who'd have thought crossply Dunlops had so little grip...

And also lapping with MGMark in the A, a surprisingly nippy little beggar.

Si, as I said before, I'm not a slave to originality, so the engine is from a very rusty early 70's Trans Am I used to own ...... yes, it's a Pontiac  :o
So, the engine is a early 70's Pontiac 400 (6.6 litre) with a Richmond Super T10 4 speed (as originally fitted to the Pontiac and similar to a Toploader).
The engine was rebuilt by some bloke called Steve Brown (machining / crank regrind by http://www.realsteel.co.uk/ (http://www.realsteel.co.uk/) in Uxbridge.  The engine has Edelbrock Performer Plus camshaft & intake manifold, Holley Street Avenger carb, custom headers / ignition.  Apart from a light honing, bore / stroke are pretty well stock.  Pontiac engines are renowned for being torque monsters and don't need to rev to silly numbers.

In a car this light you don't need silly horsepower to put a big grin on your face.  If you're going the 289 route, it really needs to be small block Ford / Toploader (although I've known people to fit the T5 (Worldclass spec) to a Ford 302).  Modern gearbox alternatives are Tremec TKO500 / 600 - a five speed - which would be well suited to a 289.
Have a look at http://www.roadcraftuk.co.uk/ (http://www.roadcraftuk.co.uk/) for bespoke engine / trans packages - they are very well regarded in the kit car / US engine worlds.

If you are looking at building a 289, the UK marketplace is pretty much only http://www.hawkcars.co.uk/ (http://www.hawkcars.co.uk/)  There are also some good second hand Hawk 289s about - builders tend to go for originality and hence would suit your idea of 'the gentlemans sportscar'.

Bloody hell H. I've been itching to do that race but none if my lot wanted to do it. I'd have done a solo 24h if I had known there would be other normal people there. Oh we'll, best of luck and let us know how you got on.

Thanks Steve. Some useful stuff there and some interesting points to mull over. I've pretty much decided on a 289 FIA which will run a 289 and a top loader, plus the IRS suspension based around a Salisbury/Dana diff (OK, a Jag axle if we want to be straight). I've been looking at British American Engines for the power plant and box. Are they a good company to deal with? I've dealt with Real Steel in the past when I rebuilt my 383 Chrysler but found the delays in stock a bit frustrating. Should be less of an issue with this being a longer term project.

Timeframe? Budget twiddling dependant, I'd like to have the car ready and sorted in time for Le Mans 2015.

http://www.24heuresvelo.fr/en/THE-SHOP-255.htm

Never mind, you can get the Jersey. (in fact, I might just do that!)

Si, there's a few folk over at http://www.cobraclub.com/ (http://www.cobraclub.com/) who have bought engines from British American Engines (BAE) and the consensus is they are a good company to deal with.
As you know, the Ford 260 / 289 is just a slightly smaller bore / stroke than the plentiful 302 small block.  Unless you get out the CSI gear, a well presented 302 would look identical to a 289 (a much rarer engine).

As to the Toploader, unless you know of a UK supplier / rebuilder, http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/ (http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/) are a good company.

Yep, it's been on my list of things to do for a while too, although I'm not entirely sure why. A bit like you, I couldn't get anyone interested, and the idea of doing it on my Jack is taking the Billy-No-Mates scenario to the extreme. There's two of us going to do it, and our target is 400 miles. We're in garage 22, and I need to look up and see which of my LM heroes have been in there before me, - I'm hoping Derek Bell or Jan Lammers, but might have to settle for Mr Blobby. Just riding somewhere without potholes that the NCB would have been proud of will be a pleasant change, although I don't think it will be pleasant for long. It's quite amusing to see that there's a 'Le Mans' start, with all the riders hobbling across the tarmac to jump on their bikes. I see that as the first hurdle...

Can I be the first to say "baboons arse"?

H

I had a giggle at that too - I imagine the clickety clack of the bike shoes sounding like a gaggle of Lancashire clog dancers when the clocking in whistle goes off at t'mill!

You could always do an Ickx and walk to your bike in a protest against the lack of doping agents that you were hoping would be freely available at a French cycling event.