Club Arnage

Interesting talking point ?

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/miscellaneous/mark-hales-found-liable-in-piper-case/ (http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/miscellaneous/mark-hales-found-liable-in-piper-case/)

What liability does a driver have when he 'borrows' a classic car for an event such as LM Classic?

I think it varies from deal to deal, but its usually a "bend it and mend it" system covered by insurance.

Deals vary from rental to drivers being paid to run the car - it depends how good or rich you are.

The Legals are over on this site:

http://www.leeds-solicitors.com/news.html

The days of a gentleman's hand shake are long gone. This will set the precedent for all future magazine articles and I guess a further nail in the coffin for printed motoring magazines. The manufacturers do not mind new press cars being trashed but the interesting stuff we are all interested to see and read about may well be kept under lock and key. If they do come out to play at Goodwood or LM Classic maybe a condition of the event is that the promoter has to cover some of the cost? That only means one thing, a hike in admission price!  As for specialist articles, unless you have a global syndication for the article and each publisher will contribute to the insurance cover we are starting to see the stead decline. Again, price of the magazine will go up.

I actually know Andrew, extremely nice man in fact.

I've just trawled through the 19 pages of the judgement which makes interesting reading.

Very sad to read this and agree with others it will probably have far reaching consequences.  I too took a look at the whole judgement thing (sad I know)..

Interesting that in the judgement section of the document (section 39) it states that the defendant 'failed properly engage gear' and was therefore deemed to have 'voer run' the engine. Given this is the crux of the whole thing you would have thought they would have spelt it correcty.......

and also point 8 on page "river" missed the "D" ::)


IS this a professional friend Kev? if so how many points did he save you from ;)

What a crying shame that something like this reaches this point... If you're rich enough and/or old enough that you can own it, but you're too old too drive it and want to show it off and/or make a buck or two, then don't get upset when it gets broken...    

And - this was a "repliica" built using some original parts, not an original 917...

MG Mark

I guess this begs the question to any of us, that if we leant a car to a friend and they blew up the engine would we expect them to at least contribute to the rebuild costs? I know i certainly would, and had I been the borrower of said car I would certainly have offered to pay or make a contribution at least.  It would be the gentlemanly thing to do surely?

Biggest problem is that the engine and gearbox can't be covered by an (affordable) insurance scheme apparently.
So both parties should agree before hand about any uninsured losses, it's not rocket science, and shouldn't really have any impact on magazines borrowing cars, just standard business practice.

Reading between the lines of the 19 page judgement, it looks like it was 'assumed' that the engine damage would be claimable on insurance.
When RSA declined the claim, Mark Hales was left to pick up the pieces.  His defence sounds to be a bit contradictory and without substance.
The section as to whether it was a contract between 2 limited liability companies or 2 private individuals is interesting.

There are a lot of outpourings of sympathy for Hales among journos, and readership of classic motorsport publications, and that is to be expected.

Personally, I think he was the victim of assumption and misjudgement, and I don't think it will spell the end of track tests of classic racing cars as some alarmists have touted. Piper is painted as the villain in the press, but I can see his point. If a car breaks on your watch for whatever reason, if you have accepted responsibility for it during your test, you foot the bill. I'm sure Hales would have been happy to accept liability if his insurance had paid-up, but it appears that he was left holding the baby and back-pedalling furiously on the liability issue. It was destined from the outset to end badly for him.

The issue I have with this, is that Hales has been made to repair a gearbox, back to new - to replace a gearbox which had been worn down by countless other drivers, including the owner.  His contribution to the wear which caused the failure, was a minute part of the reason it failed - a 917 of that age, is always going to be a ticking time bomb and Hales just happened to be holding it when the time ran out.

The thing I find most annoying though, is that, as if to add insult to injury, Piper claimed an additional £10k, for the earnings lost from the car being out of action.  £10k to a millionaire like him, is pocket change - but it's a big difference to a jobbing journo who's about to lose his house for doing his job.  

I also believe the car was sold for a significant profit shortly afterwards (Although I'm not sure how accurate that info is).  

Is this Piper bloke the same guy who built the 1969 Piper GTR LM car?  Based in Emmbrook, Wokingham?
  

Did you read it Brad?  It was the engine that blew up (and needed repair) because of a missed gear.

Not sure how you think that the car was "sold for a significant profit shortly afterwards".  I'm sure it was sold purely at market value / what a buyer was prepared to pay.

The piper gtr was nothing to do with David piper.

Piper was a farmer made richer when the m1 cut thru his family farm. He has owned and raced most of the iconic sportcars of the 60s and 70s.

He was the typical gentleman racer of his era and lost a part of his leg during the filming of 'le man's'. Ferrari supplied his cars in BP green.

The 917 in question was made up from spares and new chassis. Piper still has his genuine car.

Richard Atwood testified that the gearbox was fine when he drove it a month before. Hales mistake seems to have been to not insure fully and them admit he did over rev before backtracking.

Piper has come out of this looking a bit pompous, but at the bed of the day why should he pay to make good damage caused by another.

I'm not too happy with Octane magazine, as it was only when they refused to pay up that Piper went against Hales, who was driving the car for their benefit, not his.

Because owning a highly strung classic car, holds the risks that something mechanical will break.  Piper charged £2000 for the use of his car - far from the gentleman, more the businessman - to my mind that £2000 is to cover the wear and tear on the vehicle - given that I'm sure it's been out hundreds of times, he's made the money to fix such a failure, to which many many people have contributed.

Dickie Attwoods testimony surely holds absolutely no weight.  Anyone who has ever owned a classic car or vehicle, knows that a month is more than plenty of time for something to go catastrophically wrong, without explanation.  Indeed my experience is that these things can fix themselves in an equally unexplained manner!!

Piper should have sucked it up, and used the ££ the car has generated, and written it off of his tax bill, rather than pursuing someone who was purely doing his job.

Sorry baby putting me off, replace the word gearbox, with engine and it makes me look less like a mentalist....

Thats the problem, to Hales is mind that was also the case, however once he found out the insurance he had did not cover the required work on the engine he was screwed and started to back track.

The question re Attwood is also vaild as Hales stated that there was known problem with the gearbox before he drove it, the last person to drive it was Attwood who was not aware of any problem. There was also no work done on the gearbox after the problem and with the repaired engine functioned fine.

Piper is clearly a buisnessman, that it why he could afford to be a gentleman racer in his time and now the owner of several classics. Some of which he has made himself!

Hales is a fine driver, but is not imune to making a mistake. The court costs etc have been more expensive than the engine rebuild and its a massive shame it ended up in court, more for hales as it transpired, and it would clearly have been less costly to just get it fixed.

If you have a nice road car, and someone in a wreck of a car crashes into it, do you just suck it up because your rich and can afford it or get them to pay, if thier not insured you go after them?

This remonds me of a conversation I had with Hurley Haywood at Daytona several years ago.  He had demonstrated the Brumos Porsche 917/10 Can-Am car (which he still owns) that morning, at very much a pedestrian pace.  I asked him if he ever had the urge to bring it up to full boost & song, he replied "I'm getting a bit old for that, and I couldn't afford to fix it if the engine scatters".
Fax

No - You claim on their insurance, which they should have by law.  If that doesn't work, you claim on your own insurance....because surely as the owner of the car, you have it insured too, right?

Additionally, it does beg the question as to why, as a professional driver,  wideley publicising his availability to drive and review cars as a business concern,  Hales didn't have professional indemnity insurance, which would surely have at least covered his court costs for the making of a professional mistake whilst in the line of duty?

If an uninsured driver crashes into you and it is their fault, you can or course claim on your own insurance. You will however lose your NCB and have a claim logged on the insurer's database. Your insurance company will also pursue the uninsured driver to cover the loss. My point is... claiming on your insurance will end up being not significantly different from the scenario mentioned by Nordic. The perpetrator WILL be chased to make up the loss, just not by you.

Setting aside the subjects of blame, insurance and legal matters for a moment... "Noblesse Oblige" I think is the term that applies here. This is a story of a rich man in pursuit of a man of modest means for a sum he is owed that represents pocket change for one but is as much as the total net worth of the other.

Most people's sense of 'fair play' would probably suggest that the rich man should not deliberately bankrupt the man of modest means, even if it is his right to do so.

It's called Subrogation, the right of an insurance company (yours) to recover their losses from the the party that is judged as the primary cause of the loss (during this time Motor claims will still be considered "open") . This can take years, during which you will loose your No Claims discount, however if they are successful in recovering their payout or the third party is "A Man of Straw" - he has no money and the case is closed, you can hassle the insurance company to reinstate your no claims bonus on the CUE Database (Claims and Underwriting Exchange - the database shared by all insurance companies, this will be checked each time you take motor a policy out). This will normally only result in your present years premium being reduced, if there have been complete years of cover that have been and gone, thats another battle. If you have moved Insurance companies during the Subrogation time then you can only go back to the original Insurance company as only they can amend you claims history on CUE.

interesting article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorsport/9823844/Can-historic-racing-survive.html

"The recent court case in which journalist Mark Hales was found liable for damaging a precious Porsche 917 has massive repercussions for classic car journalism" - Yes certainly

" and racing" - Probably not.

Journos seem keen to predict both the end track tests and classic racing, then blame Piper for something that has not (and probably will not) happen.

It's turned out quite a sorry affair hasn't it. My thoughts....

Why has the magazine not helped out?
Surely, having an iconic car on the cover and featured within is pretty essential to the continuing success of a magazine? They are in the business of driving some very valuable cars, surely they have some measures in place for when it all goes wrong? So they call up a driver, send him to test a car in order to provide content, car breaks, magazine runs away and leaves jobbing journo with a big problem? Is this magazine not owned by a big (and wealthy) publishing house?

What's in it for Piper?
One of the reasons I no longer buy Octane. Pay your £4-5 per magazine and it's just one big advert. Always some old racecar that was running sh*t on the day, a few tracking shots at a damp Donnington followed by a badly researched and inaccurate side piece on the history of the car. Article usually ends with 'Car to be sold at Sotherby's Monaco sale next month est £2.2m'.
 You see the same car in several magazines over the following month. Result is the featured car usually sells way above its estimate. The magazines just become glorified (and expensive) auction catalogues.

Also, the seller makes more than expected because of the publicity and exposure. Surely the cost of a engine rebuild would be soaked up by the additional profit generated from this publicity?  Plus, if I were fortunate enough to blow £2-3 million on a race car I would expect it to have a fresh engine and box at least.

Poor Mr Hales?
 I saw this car at Le Mans Classic. I wasn't driving it because I have no money. Talent isn't a requirement it seems (I think piss poor driving is just as important as cash at LMC these days). Mr Piper makes money from his cars being at these events, and makes money by whoring them out to chinless wonders with too much money. Mr Hales makes money from driving them.
 Now correct me if I'm being a tad thick, but surely hooning a 40 year old car around a wet track surrounded by millions of fragile old tin is quite risky? There's a fair chance it will end with someone losing some money somewhere. It's the nature of the game is it not.
 Those Porsches were notorious for the engines blowing when over revved even when new, the passage of time has not changed anything. At some point milk will be spilled.

So who foots the bill?

Mr Piper. You let people drive your expensive cars for your own personal gain. You get the prestige, the attention and your car goes up in value whilst we watch. Do you expect us to feel sorry for you when your toy breaks? The car is an asset of your business. It will break now and then so budget for it to be fixed. Simple.

Mr Hales. You get to drive other people's expensive cars for financial gain. Yes you get paid to drive iconic cars at the worlds greatest circuit. I would quite like to do your job, but I don't because I don't want to lose everything when it all goes wrong. It's your choice. Motor racing has never been a poor mans sport and there's no such thing as a free meal. You race, you'd  etter have deep pockets!

Octane magazine. You started out so well but it all got a bit sh*t when you started wanking over £9000 watches. Looks like you shaft your contributors now. I'm astonished that they do not cover all eventualities.

To sum up, if I were the judge at this case, I would have called both parties forward and then smack their f**k*ng heads together and tell them to f**k the hell out of my courtroom. If you can't afford to play with your toys properly then don't play with them.

I have no sympathy for Hales for the simple reason I've seen him abuse other people's cars before.

I was at the Brands Historic Festival in 2008 (I think Steve Z and Doris were there too). Hales drove in the Porsche Carrera Cup race, he was a "guest driver" in a plain white 911 that someone had lent him. Indeed it may have been Porsche UK thinking about it. Anyhow, he drove like an utter spanner, I haven't seen such bumping and barging since I last watched banger racing at Smallfield Autodrome in about 1989. His car control was appalling too, ploughing round bends with massive understeer whilst fighting with junior drivers for last place. I watched with mounting disbelief as he left the track about three times, before finally stuffing it into the tyres at Paddock Hill bend. He angrily slammed the door shut behind him and started ranting to the marshalls about what a piece of sh*t it was.

I have to say I was left open mouthed by his appalling behaviour and I marked him down as an ungrateful bellend vowing never to read another of his articles. So I have to say I'm not at all surprised by his current predicament. I suspect Piper probably took court action on account of Hales' bad attitude.

LB makes a great point, getting really tired of picking up one of these mags, reading a road test of a historic racing car, then thumbing a few more pages and seeing a advert for the same damn car up for auction next month.  Get's a bit old, one of several reason's I've let my MotorSport subscription expire.  As LB also points out, its become one giant ad for watches that perhaps 1% of the population can afford.  My local newstand carries MotorSport, I can flip through it and if anything floats my boat, I can buy a copy, if not? Back on the shelf.
Its pretty remarkable how often these cars get sold, and re-sold.  Seems like the same cars show up for auction evey two or three years.  They usually seem to get puchased by wealthy twerps who suddenly realize there's not a hell of alot of use for an old racing car.  Dave H & I stumbled across a Porsche 962 in the paddock at Daytona several years ago, owned by some wealthy kid, who as someone once said on here, wasn't smart enough to tie his own shoes, so daddy pay's someone to do it for him.  I asked him about the car's history, and he was utterly clueless, said he thought it came from Japan and was driven by some Swedish guy (I informed him his name was Eje Elgh).
He seemed pretty typical of the clowns who purchase these.
Fax

The thing about the high-end glossies like Octane is that they don't actually make money from selling magazines to 'plebs like us'. The advertising money they make from pedalling over-priced watches to rich plonkers, rides more on the names on their comp-list than sales to the unwashed masses in WH Smith on a Saturday morning.

And there lies the eternal problem. The publishers are shifting less mags to the public (various reasons, online subs, free news sites, smart phones etc.) so they stuff the mags with ads to cover the loss of cover sales. Ultimately though, if they don't sell any mags then the advertisers will no longer pay to hawk their overpriced products in the magazine. However, with too many ads for 'overpriced watches', we, the general unwashed, will stop buying the mag even quicker ..... I stopped buying Octane and MotorSport regularly and now just pick them up when I pass through BA's lounge at Gatwick and brows through them on the flight - I don't miss getting them regularly at all.