Club Arnage

To my eye... the driver of the Porsche saw the nose of the DW and forgot that the back end is that much wider. Avoiding traffic is instinctive, and the instinct is that a car that looks like it is passing you six feet away doesn't have the equivalent of a caravan trailing behind it!

http://www.lemans.org/en/races/american-le-mans-series/update/video-%E2%88%92-accident-for-deltawing-at-road-atlanta_9053.html (http://www.lemans.org/en/races/american-le-mans-series/update/video-%E2%88%92-accident-for-deltawing-at-road-atlanta_9053.html)

True - but it surely isnt the first time he has seen the Deltawing ... and the front end is equally distinctive from any other car as the back end!

F

Looks to me like the Porker was headed for the pits, and didn't bother to check his mirrors before changing his line.  Not a design fault of the DW, and completely the fault of the Porsche IMO

oooops  ::)

Yep - I bet that was exactly what he said!

I'm not suggesting that it is a 'design fault' on the DW, just that in the fraction of a second between seeing the nose and beginning to move over, the Porsche driver forgot that (1) the DW is MUCH wider at the back and (2) the DW is loooonger than other prototypes. I was not surprised at the collision with Toyota at LM and this new incident is also down to the fact that the DW is such an odd shape that drivers instinctive allowance for other cars has yet to catch up. Be prepared for much more 'DW bashing' before that happens. 

From http://www.motorsport.com/

(http://cdn-1.motorsport.com/static/img/ugl/1400000/1470000/1476000/1476700/1476721/s1_1.jpg)

Nah - I reckon like Brad, he simply wasnt using his mirrors - the DW was coming up behind him down a long straight and through the two previous corners.  He should have know exactly what what and where the DW was long before he randomly moved right!

F

He didn't have to use his mirrors to see the DW, it was already alongside before he started to move over. Unless his peripheral vision is verging on blindness, he would have seen it. I guess we'll find out when we get the other side of the story from Peter LeSaffre.

Porsche driver LeSaffre's version of the incident:

“I had no place to go,” he said. “I was tracking out on the curb. My steering wheel was straight, and he whacked me. There is quite a bit of traffic and a lot of turns where you should not pass even if you're in a P1 car. It comes down to being patient. The race, especially in our class with eight cars, is going to be a tough one.”

Hmmm

Jeannette: "I basically pulled almost completely past and then he cut over to try and take the apex, made heavy contact with the left rear of our car which, erm, sent me for a bit of a ride."

He should probably think about looking at the video, and re-considering that statement - he quite clearly turned INTO the Deltawing!

if that is his statement it might even be wise for him to reconsider a racing career in the first place

It does look like the Porsche pulls out, away from the kerb.  No excuse

What worries me is how easily the Deltawing flipped over.  A minor accident becomes a disaster as there's no width and hence stability at the front.  I always said it was dangerous

if you see front wheels go past you, you don't have time to think oh yes, Delta, fat arse, better give it extra space,

Nice-ish car, but built back to front

I was very sceptical about the DW project when it was first announced, however I  thought it was great when it appeared at LM, and was cheering it on. I eat my words about it not coping with turns and the Mulsanne, and keeping up with the pace.
However I think my comment about it having problems coping with the rough and tumble of racing is unfortunately coming true.
It's demise at LM and Road Atlanta have been similar, other cars not seeing it, and when it's hit, it's so light that it comes off second best.
Sad, because it's a great project.

I too was sceptical about the DW project, but you have to give new concepts a chance, and I was happy to see it doing well at Le Mans in it own invented class, until it had the unfortunate crash with the Toyota.  We can debate for a long time whose fault this accident was, but the most alarming fact is just how easily the DW flipped over in an incident that would have seen any other car just spin.  For those of us without the necessary factual data, we can only guess at what actually happened, but this does need to be looked at by the proper authorities, and the thought of a whole class or possibly field of these cars in future years of racing chills me to the bone. 

This was something I don't think many of us saw coming.  I always saw it as a PR stunt, now it's a dangerous one!  If the turkey gets turned sideways, it rolls like a beer keg!
God help the poor bastard who straps himself into it!
Fax

The same Porshe that mullered the DW took out the race leader at Petit around 2 hours in. IIRC.
I am a great supporter of Gentleman drivers, without them sports car racing would be a much poorer place, if it existed at all.
But please make sure they have an eye test before they race!

Video over on Pistonheads of the Delta Wing being test driven by Chris Harris following the Petit Le Mans race weekend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c_INdbXMqsw

You can keep Chris Harris' contribution, but I was fascinated by Ben Bowlby's explanation of how it works.

Great video! 

I like Chris Harris - not because I think he's Mr Charisma, but because that's the third or fourth video I've seen of his where I've thought "this little sod is living my dreams!"

Ben Bowlbys explanation is fascinating.  The fact that it finished 5th at PLM (I didn't get to watch the race so I don't know if this was a great performance, or an inherited position through circumstance) should really shut the doubters up. 

Fax's opinion that this is a "Big PR stunt" should now be silenced as well - They've proven that the car is able to compete at the highest level speed wise (note the claim that the car is faster on the back straight than an LMP1) and does so whilst acheiving efficiency figures beyond the wildest dreams of many, much bigger, better funded teams. 

So now I'm intruiged.  What is the next step for Deltawing? 

Personally I'd like to see it at Le-Mans again next year, perhaps with 3 or 4 others, to then allow it to be classified officially. 

I'm also keen to see how this technology and innovation can be stepped into the road car arena - I have a suspicion that we could be seeing a signficant change in road car attitudes shortly - perhaps not in the style of Deltawing, but based on some of its fundamental values.

I think that the DW is not in itself going to be the shape of the future, but what it has done so effectively, is challenge the accepted philosophy of how a car should work. BMW make a big deal out of a 50-50 weight distribution, and here is a car that totally contradicts that idea, and what is more, it does it with relatively conventional materials and technology, just used in an innovative way. It has opened minds, and confounded its detractors, critics and sceptics. I think it is a marvellous design exercise, the results of which will slowly percolate into more conventional looking cars.  

I absolutely love this little car now, actually I loved it at Le Mans too! - Ben Bowlby is a genius!
I would love to watch an argument between him & Adrian Newey!

I think Indycar missed a trick not going with this design - Can you imagine 35 of them on track!

Oh no, I forgot, how the hell would Fax and his brigade get their heads around that!  :P

I would support a 500kgs class at Le Mans!

Still don't like it. At the moment it's running to it's own set of rules. If they had a 500kg class with set rules then we will see.
It's quick because it uses big underfloor tunnels that are excellent at producing downforce for little drag. These are restricted in other classes meaning they run wings which produce downforce and drag, meaning it's quick in a straight line.
I get the idea, the weight distribution and the front wheels only needing to turn the car is clever. It's also allowed (although i believe they didn't use them at Le Mans) moveable aero flaps at the back and a trick diff.
If it ran regulation tunnels and was as quick then i would be interested.
Sorry Brad as for transferring to road cars they are already making them lighter and can run movable aero, tunnels(although smaller ones) and trick diffs.
Until they have a 500kg class where there they have set rules where it can run against others then i won't be interested.

Robbo, actually they start 33 at Indy.  The reason Indycar didn't go with the Delta Wing is simple, they needed to go with a proven manufacturer, and design practice.  When the Delta Wing was floated to Indycar it was still just a concept, it had yet to turn a wheel, or be built for that matter.  It would still be blown into the weeds by the current conventional Dallara, not even close.  Also, still some serious safety concerns to be addressed with the DW design.
Agree with GF, its a clever engineering concept, but the future of the sport?  Don't think so.
And as Rhino points out, it was running with a serious weight and aerodynamic advantages that flattered the design, and gave it advantages over the "regulation" cars.  Give the LMP's the same weight and aero regs as the DW?  Lets see how quick it really is.
Fax

A few people have raised some interesting points here. 

Brad Z states that the 5th place at Petit Le Mans "should really shut the doubters up", and "is faster on the back straight than an LMP1"  Well I think not I am afraid.  I am not going to criticise the design of the car, because clearly Ben is a very clever man, and has come up with a very clever design that works, but what is it for?  I have always been sceptical of the DW, simply because I could not see what it was for and what it was trying to achieve.  A 5th place at Petit is great if you were an underdog or small private team running in LMP1 or 2, to the same rules that everybody else is running to , but to invent your own class and then say how well you are doing against everybody else does not bear comparison.  How about if we were to invent another class for F1 cars, and then how many people would shout about how much grip they had in the corners?  If a 500kg class were to be introduced, with more open rules than we have at the moment where designers were allowed more scope for development, I am sure we could see other designs embracing new technology, as the DW does not use new technology, it is a new concept using current technology in a new way.  Remember, this is one of the four Aston Martin AMR One chassis that didn't work in LMP1 last year.

I do agree with GF that the design of the DW has challenged the accepted philosophy of how a car should work.  However, in racing, you design a car to the published regulations, and the DW car is not designed to any regulations.  Again, if you gave a blank sheet of paper to all the current sportscar designers, and you were allowed to make up your own rules and regs, you would see some pretty weird and wonderful designs appear on track.

Sorry Robbo, but the thought of 33 DW's starting at Indy is very scary, and should never be allowed to happen.  We can argue till the cows come home about the performance of this car on track, and how it defies conventional thinking, but the simple fact that it (as Fax said) rolled like a beer keg after getting tagged on the rear, which would normally only send a car into a spin, not a roll, surely is enough evidence to suggest that the car can lap quickly, but in the heat of battle with other cars, is quite frankly dangerous.

As far as a more open design 500kg class is concerned, this is more appealing, and is possibly the way to go, rather than that of the DW.

Shortcut, you bring up a very interesting point in that there really isn't much in the way of new technology on the DW, the only really revolutionary aspect of the car is the unique front track, and steering.  But much of the idea is going down a path pioneered in F1 designers thirty years ago.  Look at a 1980 ground effect F1 car, wide venturi channels, usually no front wings, tiny rear wing (most designers were looking to do away with wings altogther), to eliminate drag.  In some ways its resurrecting technology, or design theories that were regulated out of existance, and re-packaging it as something new and revolutionary.  Want to talk about a racing car that had a tiny frontal area, a slippery, low-drag shape, and got its power from a tiny engine?  Look at a Brabham BT50 BMW.  Maybe its an indication of how stale contemporary racing car design has become that this is seen as so revolutionary.
The cars completely illegal under the current regulations, simple as that.  Maybe someone will build a car with a jet engine, and eight wheels, that would be illegal too, should it get a entry for Le Mans, or the Petit?
Good God! The thought of that thing hurling around a high speed Indycar oval makes my blood run cold.  It would have to protect its occupant in a violent high speed collision with a cement wall, and have I serious doubts that it could.
As far as its 500kg weight? You get anything to go fast if it doesn't weigh anything, no matter how small the motor.  And much of the component to weight limit's in the first place is to make sure cars are robust and safe.
Fax

I take all your points on board, Fax, but as a lightweight (500KG) car, it's going to have half the energy to absorb / dissipate as a 1000KG car running at the same speed, and lets not forget, it is running with a modern LMP tub which has the energy absorbtion mandated for a car running at over twice the AUW. It shouldnt have a problem, but I'd not wish a 200 mph plus accident on an oval on anyone.

Good point Nick about the weight vs energy dissipation.  My biggest concern is that with a conventional Indycar, there are large energy absorbing sidepods on each side of the car, obviously these soak up much of the impact of a side hit. With the DW, there's nothing but the bare tube all the way back to the cockpit, and there just rear suspension, and venturi undertray.  Not much to absorb a side blow, which can be devastating at the high speeds Indycars often race at.
Fax

2 problems i could see if they raced on ovals. 1 most drivers steer the car through the apex using the front wheels as reference. On the Wednesday practice at Le Mans one of the dw drivers did this and hit the kerb so hard it cut the engine. Doing 200mph at Indy going for a gap when you  aren't sure of the width. Or running up to the wall without going to far.
2 most single seaters have side impact bars bonded to the side of the chassis. Usually one high one low. Not sure if the dw has them. Would mean having a sidepod similar to F1 dimensions. Perhaps spoiling the aero as it is.

A couple of good points made by Fax and Rhino.  As we know, the DW is made from one of the four redundant AMR One chassis.  These chassis are constructed with 1" thick high density aluminium core in the drivers side to aid in a side impact.  The original car was designed to have the regulation flat floor that would have been protruding from the side of the car, and structural radiator ducts on the side of the chassis, and a side pod outer, all of which would help to dissipate the energy in a side impact.  The DW has none of these of course, apart from the 1" thick core which is part of the chassis.  This will make it more vulnerable than an LMP1 or 2 car in a side impact.  In the rollover that the DW car suffered at Atlanta however, it will have fared better than an LMP car.  The roll hoop structure that is an integral part of the chassis withstood more than 12 tons of pressure during the mandatory FIA crash test before deforming at all.  Obviously the DW is lighter than an LMP car, so the roll hoop structure should be able to cope with any roll over the DW may suffer.  From the photos I have seen of the DW after its Atlanta crash, it appears to have worn off part of the roll hoop as it has skidded down the track upside down. The top 30mm of the roll hoop is solid carbon fibre, therefore a simple repair at the track should have involved bonding on some solid carbon to the top of the roll hoop.

Therefore, the modified chassis that the DW runs is good for safety in some areas, but seriously lacking in safety in other areas.  To be fair, if Ben Bowlby were allowed to design a purpose built chassis to his way of thinking, I am sure he would be able to build in the necessary safety structures.

Having said that, I still would be very scared to see a full field of 33 of these heading towards turn one at The Brickyard at 230mph......

Errrm....the only thing that matters in that car, is that it has the same carbon fibre monocoque that was designed for a car that weighed twice to three times that of the Delta Wing.  

Sidepods, radiator ducts etc are not structural to a monocoque, hence the reason it's called a monocoque - singular - not dependant on anything else etc - That monocoque would have had to be tested, on its own (without any ancillaries, sidepods etc) and would have had to withstand loads based on the weight of an LMP1 car - those include front impact, rear impact, and side puncture.   If you think about it - Sidepods on a modern F1 car, don't offer any protection for the driver, and very little in the way of energy dissipation - 80% of the driver sits IN FRONT of the side pod:

(http://www.f1scarlet.com/img/petronas.jpg)

In the areas you describe, it doesn't NEED to be "as safe" as other LMP cars, as it would never need to deal with the same loads as an LMP1 or LMP2 car - the potential energy is in such a different league, owing to the cars low weight.

 I would suggest that the DW is so heavily over engineered in the safety areas in its current form, that this is very much, the least of any worries you might have if you're in the cockpit.  

Your totally right Brad, the tub was designed for a car that was three tines heavier than the DW...a car that was actually built to the regulations!
Why are we even debating this...PR STUNT!  I suppose I should call it something else now that it's actually turned a wheel, perhaps gimmick is a better description.  Actually I never thought it would actually be built, and race, so I'll certainly eat some crow on that.  But I still don't like for the same reason's Rhino, and Shortcut point out, it doesn't conform to any sanctioned racing regulations, therefore I can't take it seriously as a racing car.
Its a clever kart...
Fax

Thank you Brad.  I agree with you, and you make the point that I was trying to make.  The chassis is an ex LMP 1 chassis, and therefore has gone through the mandatory FIA crash test, and as I explained, it exceeded the roll structure test by a long way, and of course the DW is lighter than an LMP 1, so overall is a safe car.  What I meant regarding the rad ducts, is that they are a substantial structure, usually with 3 plys of carbon either side of core, and are fixed to the side of the chassis very securely.  You correctly say that they are not part of the crash test, and they are not a regulation crash structure,  but do offer energy absorption in the event of a side impact.


On an F1 car, as Rhino correctly points out, there are two crash tubes bonded to the side of the chassis for energy absorption.  Overall, the point I was trying to make is that the car is as safe as any other car on the track in the event of an accident, but as we have debated before, the car should not be out there in its own invented class, and is quite frankly dangerous as shown at Atlanta.

Brad in your picture the side pods are bonded on the car. It's in there that the side impact tube is bonded on the car. The lower one is incorporated in the floor and bolted to the tub. With Indycars the side pod/rad duct is part of the side impact structure. I know in other LMP cars side pods i don't believe have to be part of the crash test but are usually (as Shortcut say's) beefed up to avoid the tub being damaged in event of a side impact.
The DW does have anti intrusion panel's which i take to mean an outer panel of the tub made of Kevlar or Dyneema. They made bullet proof vest's out of it so good for stopping most things!
My main worry would still be drivers unable or forgetting to gauge width at the front and either going for too narrow a gap or as happened at Le Mans on wednesday practice hitting the apex with the front wheels and forgetting the back. The DW seems to look as though it will be prone to turning sideways in accidents where other's bounce off.

PR Stunt?

Your definition of PR stunt must be fairly warped.  I'm fairly sure a PR stunt would never:

  - Turn a wheel in anger.
  - Race.
  - Finish 5th in a race that you've claimed is so important to the world of sportscar racing, that it should be included in the WEC calendar.
  - Outpace an LMP1 car on a straight

I'm also fairly sure that every single major invention and innovation in motorsports over the last 50 years has been rubbished, and termed a "Gimmick" by people who claim themselves to be in the know about motorsports.....Putting the engine in the rear, putting a wing on the back of a car, putting a wing on the front of a car,  Ground effects, fans, KERS, using diesel to race in an endurance race......  the list is endless....the funny thing is, that the people who criticise these things are often those who are scared of change, or the ones who believe that motorsports should stay the same forever.  Those who actually understand, embrace the innovation of looking at the same problem, in a different way.  And those who are in charge, generally take the learnings, copy them, and change motorsports forever. 

PR stunt or not, Deltawing HAS changed the way people think about the motorsports problem.  It will continue to do so, and I suspect you're going to see more and more operations using innovative wheel combinations, and extreme efficiency classes becoming more and more important in the future. 

PR stunts come and go.  Innovation changes the face of motorsports.   This is about as far from being a PR stunt as is possible.

Look Brad, first off, let's get things striaght, my opinion's are of purely my expression on the state of sportscar racing  None of what I say is a personal attack on anyone's intellect, or opinion.  Your brother has met me, as have other's on here, I don't think any of them have found me that objectionable (at least they didn't tell me to my face) I suspect we would get along like a house on fire.
But I just don''t get the DW? It was floated in the competition to be the next Indycar, when that didn't happen they bolted on headlights and presto! It's a Sportscar? They didn't even have a purpose built tub for it, they just bolted on a AMR tub, and the rest is the DW bits.   Really?  This is just wrong to me as a lifelong sportscar racing enthusiast. Build something with purpose, not as a adhoc plan B.
They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, in 1979 every F1 car on the grid copied the Lotus 79.  Let's see in the next couple of years how many cars copy the DW...If they actually bother to create a class for it.
Fax

All if those have been, as far as I can think, have been allowed within a formula, ie the designer has looked at the regs and seen way round or the rules makers have embraced a concept and set up a class that every one can compete in.

The Delta Wing is wonderful expression of design, but it does not really bring anything new to the table, its light, Chapman and others did the same about 100 years ago.

The designer has done a Libra car for a class that does not exist and its being judged against cars that have to compete in a tightly regulated system.

Absolutely, lets be clear, this is a debate - I'm not out to attack people personally.... You have one viewpoint, I (often it would seem) have a completely different one - nothing I've written should be regarded as a personal attack - indeed, I suspect that we'd get on famously (and if you make it to Sebring this year, we might just find out!).  With that said though, I completely fail to understand your insistence to continue to term the DeltaWing as a PR stunt.  Research project, yes - experiment, yes - but PR stunt?  It's quite simply not one....Initially I would have agreed with you, but the way things have developed over the last year have done as much as is possible to dispell that myth.

Also - when DW was sighted as an IndyCar, it was a design - it didn't exist.  When it failed to get awarded the IndyCar contract, the owners of the design, rightly in my opinion, sought a different platform in which to race.   So they looked as suitable tubs for sale in the sportscar area, and bought the AMR ONE. 

Given that the initial investment from Nissan didn't exist at the time, the team couldn't have afforded to purpose design, and build a chassis, without knowing for sure that the design works - Let alone get it through Homologation, crash testing, etc etc.  I'm sure they would have loved to have a purpose built chassis, but in times of austerity, and without major investment, that was never going to happen - certainly never safely anyway - If the AMR One had been bought as a platform for the Indycar, then yes, you'd be right - but it wasn't, the design principle was specifically applied to a sportscar chassis.  It's absolutely no different to Pescarolo using an AMR ONE and changing its configuration/parts/aero. 

Surely if they create a class for DW, I would  assume most people will copy it?!?

Most interestingly though, my father has some SERIOUS explaining to do if you've met my brother!  :o :o :o

Huh! Really confused, Andy's your old man? Or are you even related?  I obviously was under the wrong impression.  Ooops!
Agreed, we often disagree, but that's fine, if everyone on this forum was in agreement about everything, it would be one boring as hell forum!
I said in a previous post, to me it's not a PR stunt anymore now that it's actually tunred a wheel, and that I stand corrected (or will eat some crow, same thing).  But until it actually races to a set of regulations, and not just as a one-off special entry, I can't, and won't take it seriously as a racing car.  To me its just a clever engineering project.  This is where you & I disagree, I'm not going to change your mind, you won't chnage mine, but like I said, that's fine.
Fax

It's a Zarse thing - (a bit like the Masons, the Knights Templar or the Worship Company of Weavers or something :-) )

I am so tempted to reply that Andy is my old man... I literally have tears rolling off my cheeks right now :).

Andy, myself and a few others are not brothers... Simply "Team Mates" is, I guess the best way to explain it.

The Team Zarse name originates from a childish idea,that the addition of Zarse to ones name, said quickly enough,makes it sound like you are speaking about that persons rear end... :)

Andyz arse
Stevez arse
Bradz arse
Jonz arse :)

It's childish, immature, and like loads of other things on that intellectual level, lots of fun. ;)

Wow!  I've taken that bait...hook, line & sinker over all these years.  Feel a bit silly but what the hell, all in good fun.
Learn something new everday. ;D
Fax

Not quite resulted in tears rolling down the cheeks, but that did make me smile broadly.  The thought of it.  Mind you, years of team interbreeding could produce all sorts of offspring I suppose......

MG MArk

Wow, the soft squidgy side of Fax - Group hug!!!  ;D

I've just had an SMS from Andy.  It simply said....

"I promise I never went anywhere near your mom"

Well...it sort of said that anyway :)

I can still remember the time when Brad wasn't even calling himself Zarse. Good old days.... ;)

hahahahaha .........  ;D

'Like'  ;D

Excuse me....

Love this forum, the way that thread creep can go in the twinkling of an eye from a enlivening and illuminating debate from polar opposites about the Deltawing to the genealogy and possible past proclivities of the Zarses.....

MG Mark

I've got to admit that I thought that Andy and Brad were brothers and that Zarse was some surname of undefined eastern European origin ::)

Have to admit, there was a time when I thought Andy's name was a leg pull, then I once asked Matt Harper "Just curious, what Andy's real last name?" to which he replied "funny you should ask, its Zarse" so I'm blaming all my confusion on Matt (I've actually spent many a confused evening, usually from massive Guiness consumption, with Matt and Dave). ;D
Fax

Well he'd seen that you thought that he was my father...... :)

Indeed, translates roughly into english as something to do with arses....I'm sure Big H would have an illuminating slant on this aspect....

Mark

(http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np9/characters/darthvader-screengrab.jpg)

Has too much hair to be Andy :)

Unlike you, with your thick glossy luxuriant pubis.

Back 'on topic'...

This chap has some outlandish ideas for the DeltaWing..

(apologies for the irritating and pointlessly complex flash website)

http://www.aliasguy.com/ (http://www.aliasguy.com/)