Club Arnage

Club Arnage => General Discussion => Topic started by: Grand_Fromage on September 28, 2012, 01:35:54 pm



Title: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on September 28, 2012, 01:35:54 pm

http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/fia-wec-unveils-2013-provisional-calendar_641.html (http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/fia-wec-unveils-2013-provisional-calendar_641.html)

Springtime Spa and Silverstone both likely to be soggy.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on September 28, 2012, 01:45:11 pm
No Sebring  :(.   
Austin looks interesting though, ALMS and WEC in one weekend.   

Damn, 2013 will be diffcult to choose for.   


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: smokie on September 28, 2012, 02:51:14 pm
Why wouldn't Sebring be on the list http://sebringraceway.com/12hr_tickets.lasso

Does it mean the Big Boys won't bother with it?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Barry on September 28, 2012, 04:14:18 pm
Having spent one of the most wettest, cold miserable days of my life at Silverstone one April, I doubt I will be tempted.

Although I am off work that weekend, so if it's as sunny and warm as April was this year I might go.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on September 28, 2012, 04:30:29 pm
Sebring now belongs to the France family empire. The Sebring 12 hours has always overshadowed Daytona and I think this is a chance to demote it. Look out for the Rolex 24 opening the calendar of the WEC (if it survives that long) in 2014.

Why wouldn't Sebring be on the list http://sebringraceway.com/12hr_tickets.lasso

Does it mean the Big Boys won't bother with it?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on September 28, 2012, 05:53:34 pm
Sebring statement about the WEC schedule

Quote
WEC CALENDAR ENABLES TEAMS
TO COMPETE AT SEBRING

Although Sebring is not part of the 2013 WEC calendar, the schedule is organized to create a substantial window for teams to compete in the 12-hour classic, the opening round of the American Le Mans Series presented by Tequila Patrón.

The 61st running of the Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring fueled by Fresh from Florida takes place on Saturday, March 16. The WEC calendar opens at Silverstone (GBR) on April 14.

"We are very encouraged about 2013," stated Sebring President and GM Tres Stephenson, "We have already received inquiries from WEC teams who wish to compete in next year's Sebring endurance classic."

http://www.sebringraceway.com/news-9-28-2012-WEC.lasso


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: landman on September 28, 2012, 08:20:47 pm
So August [warmer & wet] has been swapped for April [colder & wet].

Good way to halve attendance at the event.

Way to go ACO.

Caveat: it might be Silverstone's fault.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: JDS on September 29, 2012, 09:04:42 am
Nice to see it moving to that hallowed mecca of motorsport, urm ..... oh yeah, Austin Texas.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on September 29, 2012, 11:52:36 am
Update on 2013 WEC

Brazilian Date Change Due to Revised Formula One Calendar
Following the announcement of the FIA Formula One 2013 Calendar by the World Motor Sport Council in Paris the FIA World Endurance Championship has revised the date of the 6 Hours of Sao Paulo after the original date for the Belgian Grand Prix changed from the 1 September to the 25 August. 

In order to avoid a clash with the Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps, the 6 Hours of Sao Paulo will now take place on Saturday 31 August, which was the original date agreed with the promoter of the event Emerson Fittipaldi before the provisional F1 calendar was announced in Singapore over one week ago.


2013 Provisional FIA World Endurance Championship Calendar - UPDATED
14    April      Round 1   6 Hours of Silverstone              GBR
04    May        Round 2   WEC 6 Hours of Spa-Francorchamps    BEL
22/23 June       Round 3   24 Heures du Mans                   FRA
31    August     Round 4   6 Hours of Sao Paulo                BRA
22    September  Round 5   6 Hours of Austin *                 USA
20    October    Round 6   6 Hours of Fuji                     JPN
10    November   Round 7   6 Hours of Shanghai *               CHN
30    November   Round 8   6 Hours of Bahrain                  BAH

*To be confirmed



Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: JDS on September 29, 2012, 12:17:47 pm
Why is only Spa the "WEC 6 hours of ..." etc. when all the others are just the "6 hours of ... " Anyone know?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on September 29, 2012, 12:24:01 pm
There is already a 6 hours of Spa (non WEC) so it makes the distinction between the two.

http://www.sixhoursofspa.co.uk/ (http://www.sixhoursofspa.co.uk/)

 
Why is only Spa the "WEC 6 hours of ..." etc. when all the others are just the "6 hours of ... " Anyone know?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Lazy B'stard on September 29, 2012, 03:04:25 pm
Not impressed with that at all.

No Sebring? A true blue riband event!

Silverstone? In April? And six hours? 12 hours of Donnington in Late July would have been better IMO.

Bahrain, Japan and China? Japan apart, does anyone in those countries give a sh*t about sportscar racing; and judging by the empty grandstands a few weeks back in Brazil, likewise?

My choice would have been

Sebring 12hrs  - April
Spa 6 hrs - May
LM 24hrs - June
Donnington 12hrs -July
Watkins Glen 6hrs -August
N'Ring 12hrs- September
Suzuka 6hrs- October


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on September 29, 2012, 06:18:58 pm
Camera policy at Austin for the F1 this year : http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/09/no-cameras-allowed-at-us-gp.html

If they do the same at the WEC next year, they can put their race up their a**.   Saves me an expensive trip.
FIA bastards !


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: lofty on September 29, 2012, 06:54:18 pm
what no handcuffs?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on September 29, 2012, 07:14:59 pm
No camera's at the USGP?  WTF?  That'll endear them to the spectators, having their camera's confiscated at the circuit.  Also no coolers, no alcoholic beverages, no food?  They'll be gouging the spectators for all their worth.  They can go f**k themselves?  From the outset I've thought the folks running the show at COA have had their heads up their asses, and this just re-confirms my belief.  It doesn't look like the MotoGP there will take place, they tried to screw over the one guy they really needed in their corner, Kevin Schwantz, and now he's got a lawsuit filed against them.  I really hope that place folds up and dies soon.  They've been spending money like drunken sailors, and if they think their going to make it back on F1 they're dillusional.
At IMS, you can bring in all the booze you want, just no glass bottles, and coolers have to fit under the seats. At most of our road circuits you can pretty much bring in any god-damn thing you want, anyone who's been to Sebring can vouch for that.
As for the WEC?  who really f**k*ng cares?
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: JDS on September 29, 2012, 09:46:50 pm
Bahrain, Japan and China? Japan apart, does anyone in those countries give a sh*t about sportscar racing; and judging by the empty grandstands a few weeks back in Brazil, likewise?
Did you see the Bahrain coverage today? nobody there at all - the occasional shot of a local walking around outside the stands, but never saw a soul in the stands  :o

Have to agree that Silverstone in April is not the best of choices - anyone remember an April where it didn't rain? I'm starting to think that there is serious mileage in GF's statement that the WEC is doomed.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on September 29, 2012, 10:19:21 pm
Stands were empty ... After the finish there was a shot of the grandstand, think I saw 20 people on it.   Brazil was empty, this was even worse and I can't think it would get any better in China.  They might get some interest in Japan with Toyota but that's it.

Whoever pays to get a race, they'll have it.  Rather that than a race on a track were the fans can come over and watch it apparently.   Next year Silverstone, Spa and Le Mans will have their spectators, everything else will be on deserted tracks.  Guess the teams won't be happy about that ?  Driving in front of empty stands, marginal media coverage of the race ... Can't imagine they want to race something like Bahrein and Brazil 'cause those are the big markets for their cars or sponsors ?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on September 29, 2012, 10:48:36 pm
This is what I was bitching about when the FIA released the WEC calendar, they scheduled races in places where nobody gives rat's behind about sportscar racing, and no one is going to show up. But because of the FIA's dumb-ass regulation that a country can't host more than one race, they won't go to Road Atlanta, where they could have raced in front of a packed house of spectators that actually care about sportscar racing.
In hindsight, I'm going to call out Big Cheese for being a complete f**k*ng hypocrite!  He was the one pimping the WEC!  And I called it a pile of rubbish from the outset!
Its amazing a what making a living off the sport will do to people opinions?  One minute you support the WEC and its decisions, the next when it clearly is going to fall like a house of cards, your on the side of the critics.
The nice thing about not being employed by the sport, and just being an enthusiast, is that you can call a spade a spade.  The WEC was never going to fly, from the outset, and GF knew it, but he was going to pimp it for all it was worth because he could make a buck off it.   Now it's clearly going to take a sh*t & die, and he's going to say he called it?  Give me a f**k*ng break!
Racing should be done by Racers, not by people looking to make a buck off of it.
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Nordic on September 30, 2012, 11:49:12 am
Rose tinted glasses are great. Its been a very long time since sports car races have drawn big crowds at anything thing other than a few key races outside the USA.

I expect if tracks like Monza, the 'ring, Paul Ricard thought they could make a race work for them they would pushing to have a race there. The European appetite for long distance races has faded,

The WEC could work, and may still do, its got 2 works teams and maybe one day the Porsche will finally turn up. But it lacks big sponsors behind the teams. Remember Group C, you had Rothmans, Martini, Canon, Silk Cut, Boss, AEG, Castrol, Shell etc. All looking for a return and marketing the races. nowadays the big buck sponsors have gone, either banned or in F1.

Fax, I don't often think you talking out your ring, but GF does know a thing or two about sports car racing, maybe even more than you.

Not sure what your grand idea would be, you never say but IMHO the WEC (which in reality is just a name) as a concept could work. it needs much better promotion and to rebuild interest in Europe before flying all round the world.

How you do that is to get drivers the general public have heard of, sponsors who invest not just in the team but also the races, get the top tracks interested, maybe have shorter 1hr races on a Saturday or big money sprint races like the old Norsring. 





Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on September 30, 2012, 06:06:24 pm
Correct Nordic, I was off base with that remark.  I've since modified my post. I was aggravated with GF, I said from the outset the schedule was crap and he kept telling me was wrong.  Well, the schedule (and the WEC) has turned out be a dud.
As far as getting high profile drivers to participate, Grand-Am does a good job of attracting NASCAR and Indycar elite on weekends when their not racing (which isn't often).
I think your right, outside of the US, and the LM 24hrs, there just doesn't seem to be any interest in sportscar racing.  I don't really understand what happened to the appetite for it in Europe, since the demise of Group C.  There was a time not long ago where Group C rounds attracted big sponsors and big crowds.
However no, I don't think with the current level of interest, and with the current regs, a WEC will work.  That's how I've felt from the outset, and one could take one look at that schedule and see there were going to be races where no one was going to show up.  My grand plan. ditch the current prototypes, and go with a silhouette formula, and shorter races that are TV friendly.  Fans just don't have a appetite for true prototypes anymore, go with something purpose built for racing but resembles a production vehicle, Group 5 if you like.  I think the era of LMP is dead.
Also, race in places where people will actually show up, if it means having three races in the US, so be it, at least you know there will be interest there.  If begin to sense a buzz in more remote markets, then go that direction.
fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Brad Zarse on October 01, 2012, 11:08:38 am
Correct Nordic, I was off base with that remark.  I've since modified my post. I was aggravated with GF, I said from the outset the schedule was crap and he kept telling me was wrong.  Well, the schedule (and the WEC) has turned out be a dud.
As far as getting high profile drivers to participate, Grand-Am does a good job of attracting NASCAR and Indycar elite on weekends when their not racing (which isn't often).
I think your right, outside of the US, and the LM 24hrs, there just doesn't seem to be any interest in sportscar racing.  I don't really understand what happened to the appetite for it in Europe, since the demise of Group C.  There was a time not long ago where Group C rounds attracted big sponsors and big crowds.
However no, I don't think with the current level of interest, and with the current regs, a WEC will work.  That's how I've felt from the outset, and one could take one look at that schedule and see there were going to be races where no one was going to show up.  My grand plan. ditch the current prototypes, and go with a silhouette formula, and shorter races that are TV friendly.  Fans just don't have a appetite for true prototypes anymore, go with something purpose built for racing but resembles a production vehicle, Group 5 if you like.  I think the era of LMP is dead.
Also, race in places where people will actually show up, if it means having three races in the US, so be it, at least you know there will be interest there.  If begin to sense a buzz in more remote markets, then go that direction.
fax

From what I can tell, you are suggesting:

* Three races in the US - Thus eliminating the "World" element.
* Shorter Races - Thus eliminating the "Endurance" element.
* I'm pretty sure if you look at most of it, you're suggesting there should be no "Championship" involved either.

Perhaps we should just leave the whole world that isn't single seater racing to Nascar. They can spend their time going roundy roundy and see who gets lucky?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Lazy B'stard on October 01, 2012, 12:08:13 pm
I can see some sense in Fax's comments. Not sure on the shorter races thing, but as for geographical locations....

Shorter races for TV. Firstly, as much as a love sportscar racing, it doesn't always make for great TV. It's like cricket. You either like the long game or you don't. Shorter races would be like 20 20 cricket- better for TV but not really cricket in the true sense.
 Last years Le Mans was fantastic for us die hards, but to the casual observer it was probably dull. If you try and change the sport in an effort to impress the casual observer, you destroy the sport. Take a look at World Rally as a good example of this. So, made for TV sport isn't the answer. How does the sponsor/ manufacturer get value for money if the sport isn't TV friendly? I don't know. I will leave that to someone with more brains than me.

Geography
 This is where Faxy boy has it just about spot on. Why go to countries that are not interested, especially when you have a new series? Would it not be better to have races in countries where there is a culture, history and passion for Sportscar racing? What is going to attract sponsors, manufacturers and race promotors.... A busy vibrant circuit or a desolate track in the arse end of nowhere with empty grandstands? So we have to have a calendar heavily based in the US and Europe for 4-5 years (just as F1 was in its early years), but at least it will build a stronger foundation- create a buzz, an excitement, a following. Sponsors and manufacturers will then see a worthwhile market- more teams, more interest. The popularity would grow and THEN it can go global into new continents.

At the end of the day, everyone is going to have a different opinion on what the WEC should/could be. At the moment it's clear to see that they have got it very wrong indeed. I suspect it will die a death, taking the feeder series with it (ELMS is already dead and ALMS has made a shrewd pact with the Devil to try and survive).

We can only hope that true sportscar races such as Sebring and Le Mans survive. And at the moment I'm not feeling so sure of that.

Si


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on October 01, 2012, 02:11:45 pm
The WEC can exist because manufacturers want to race in emerging and developing markets. Without works teams involvement, the FIA don't have a credible championship.

TV is the most important thing in funding motorsport and spectators at the track somewhat less so. Even in F1 events, the trackside spectators are more 'set dressing' than major source of revenue. The WEC have a problem in that they need TV money but they also insist on 6 hour races that don't fit well into a TV schedule.

Like it or not, it is money that drives racing, and the WEC 2013 calendar is driven by money. The WEC needed a race in North America but they needed a race that was within budget and at a venue acceptable to the ALMS, and of course, one that does not clash with the F1 season. I'm not too surprised that the ALMS are not keen to have the WEC heavyweights overshadowing their 'swansong' Petit Le Mans prior to the "Grand-American Le Mans Series" in 2014. If you listened to the RLM interview with Gerard Neveu (WEC boss) on Saturday, the subtext seemed to be that the WEC was not in glowing financial health. Yes I'm enthusiastic about the WEC and I think an endurance racing World Championship is an excellent thing, but I'm just doubtful about its longevity in its current form, and in the midst of a gobal recession.

As for the folks who put together the 2013 calendar, they had an impossible job. I feel for them because I know they they knew the selections of dates and venues would'nt be popular with race fans. But.. you have to cut your coat according to your cloth.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Lazy B'stard on October 01, 2012, 03:54:59 pm
I understand that money is the number one requirement when it comes to Motorsport but the money comes from the marketing man. Marketing man can't be impressed by the rows of empty grandstands at every round. I doubt the TV viewing figures amount to much either. So where is Mr Marketing Man going to get his return? Who is going to go out and buy an Audi or a Toyota next week? Probably very few.

The WEC has tried to run before it could walk. It's not going to attract new fans and it's turning the old fans away in droves. How is that a step forward?

It has so much potential. Multi class racing is always going to be great- there's more overtaking in an hour than in a whole season of F1 without having to resort to dodgy tyres and moving flaps. Then there are the races too- Le Mans is probably the most famous race in the world. It's a damn sight cheaper to compete in than F1 too. Just ask Toyota.
 Everything is in place for something fantastic. I bet Bernie is pissing himself when he thinks of the WEC. I has the potential to blow F1 out of the water with the right team behind it.

The fans trackside might just be 'set dressing' in terms of direct revenue, but it's the fans that buy the sponsors products, buy the cars, make up the TV viewing figures, spread the word, create the buzz and drive a sports popularity. These are the people who should matter, because they are the end user, it is they that provide the money that a sport needs, not directly at the turnstile, but in the end of year report for the big manufacturers.

Someone (I can't remember who) on here told of the owners club corral's at Sebring. Once it was all Corvette, Ford Mustangs etc. 10 years ago you would spend hours in the car park looking for an Audi. Now the Audi corral is just as big as the Corvette corral. Those cars belong to the fans. They are paying for the racing, not TV.

Ignore the fans and you kill the sport.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 01, 2012, 05:44:47 pm
Brad, I'm not sying do away with long distances races, you know damn well what I mean, keep the blue riband endurance events Le Mans, Sebring, Petit, etc.  But time to do away with the 1000ks, or 6hr format.  They were great back in the day, and no one lives with rose-tinted glasses on more than me, but racing needs to be TV friendly like it or not.  I think the ALMS and Grand-Am both got it right with the 2 1/2-3hr format.
The notion that if you have more than one race in a country, it takes away its "World" element is pig-ignorant.  Simply put, race where people want you there...
And Brad, its easy to knock NASCAR, I do all the time, but have you ever seen their TV and attendance figures? The folks running the WEC would give their left arm for those kind of numbers, as would the sponsors involved.
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: oldtimer on October 01, 2012, 05:48:07 pm
Correct Nordic, I was off base with that remark.  I've since modified my post. I was aggravated with GF

I didn't see the post before it was modified but even after modification your views Fax are expressed, as usual, in a pretty forthright and unsavoury manner.  Anyway speaking of calling a spade a spade - you are behaving like a w****r.  Grow up.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 01, 2012, 06:21:33 pm
Good one oldtimer, that was a insightful contribution to the debate.
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: oldtimer on October 01, 2012, 06:28:07 pm
It wasn't meant to be a contribution to the debate it was meant to make you consider whether your petulant and childish antics are really appropriate.  A forlorn hope I fear.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 01, 2012, 06:31:29 pm
I'm not going anywhere, if you don't like it, don't read it.
Last time a checked, this a forum to express opinions, not just one's that agree with you.
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Rhino on October 01, 2012, 06:31:41 pm
If they were going to shorten races, how long would they be? They are saying F1 races are to long. Would it be better if they had a few short races like the old Nuremberg race, do DTM still use it.
I still think they miss out on the best marketing tool. The cars should be proper 2 seater's. You could have a session on a Friday for journalist's and prize winners to travel in the car. Remember back in the early 80's when they used to do that.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 01, 2012, 06:37:20 pm
In my opinion, the 3 hour format makes for a good "sprint" race to compliment the true endurance classics on the calendar.  Its TV friendly, plus you can have a host of support races on the card.  Like I said, just my opinion, but it seeme to work at many of the North American rounds.
It doesn't sit well with purist, and I'm one of them, but what the WEC is doing now clearly isn't working.
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: oldtimer on October 01, 2012, 07:14:42 pm
I'm not going anywhere, if you don't like it, don't read it.
Last time a checked, this a forum to express opinions, not just one's that agree with you.
Fax

You are right about one thing - for a change - it is a forum for expressing opinions and I was expressing mine.  Did they not agree with you? Shame.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 01, 2012, 07:34:48 pm
Oldtimer, your two or three lines of Fax bashing is boring me to tears, do you actually have an opinion on the 2013 WEC, or are your just obssesed with me?
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: BigH on October 01, 2012, 07:35:23 pm
Quote
Last time a checked, this a forum to express opinions,

Can we hear a bit more about the drunken sailors?

H


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: oldtimer on October 01, 2012, 08:13:32 pm
Oldtimer, your two or three lines of Fax bashing is boring me to tears, do you actually have an opinion on the 2013 WEC, or are your just obssesed with me?
Fax
As it happens I do have an opinion about the WEC 2013.  In concept it is absolutely brilliant but I am deeply saddened that the powers that be have decided, or been forced by arcane FIA regulations, to compile a schedule that puts the races in countries where trackside support is so poor.

What I would prefer to see, though am realistic enough to recognise that it isn't actually going to happen, is a series of 6 and 12 hour races based predominantly in Europe and the US (and anywhere else people might actually turn up to see the cars race) with the full backing and participation of the world's major manufacturers... a bit like Group C in its heyday, but better.  We can all dream.

As for me having an obsession for you I think not.  In fact I can't imagine why anybody would want to be obsessed by a boorish grobian like you.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 01, 2012, 09:15:55 pm
Glad to see you agree with me on the schedule, but I just can't see a series of 6 and 12 hour races working in this day & age.  The hardcore fans would turnout for them, problem there just aren't enough of them.  Casual fans are where one gets the big numbers, TV ratings, attendance, etc., and they just won't sit through a 6 hour race.  Where you have alot of people, you get media exposure.
This is what NASCAR, has always been absolutely brilliant at, packaging the product, marketing it, building brand loyalty, taking stick & ball fans who were casual racing fans and turning them into devoted followers.
Here in the US as far as motorsports TV figures NASCAR is king, followed by AMA Supercross, and NHRA drag racing.. Sportscar racing, as healthy here as any place on the planet, is still barely a blip on the radar.  This where I have some hope for the merger between Grand-Am and ALMS, combine NASCAR's amazing promotion skills, with the brains that made the ALMS successful, could be a brilliant formula.  Just don't have the same optimism for the WEC, especially if they continue to shackle themselves to that schedule.
Boorish Grobian?  I take that as a compliment! >:D
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Andy Zarse on October 02, 2012, 06:39:07 am
It wasn't meant to be a contribution to the debate it was meant to make you consider whether your petulant and chlish antics are really appropriate.  A forlorn hope I fear.
I really like the forthright style Fax brings to the discussion. It's passionate, direct and has a degree of logic too. This thread is exactly what CA has been lacking the last few years, a proper family barney. It's not a grammar school debating society.



Incidentally, in the expression Hooray and up she rises, does anyone know what is it exactly that rises up?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 02, 2012, 06:57:09 am
Thanks Andy for the props, miss you, love you, your a born racer.  That phrase (A born racer) was beautifully explained to me years ago, and it really defines some good blokes (or birds in the case of Debs) by a bloke who'd spent years bombing around the Isle.  Some get it, others spend their entire life pretending they have it.
Those who are, will let you know just in case, but really, you'll already know it.
I'm a lorry driver, and a biker!  Don't expect me to be polite, or articulate.  But I will be f**k*ng honest!
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: JDS on October 02, 2012, 10:26:16 am
The notion that if you have more than one race in a country, it takes away its "World" element is pig-ignorant.  Simply put, race where people want you there...

(Take this with the good humour it is intended with, but just too good an opportunity to miss ..... ) So it'll end up like the baseball 'World Series' then? - haha. As an aside to that remark, one of the companies I work for (interestingly, it's European based) has two main branches, NA & WONA which stands for North America and World Outside of North America, it's purely revenue based and represents an almost 50/50 revenue split, but 7 years later it still makes me smile :-)

Back to the debate and specifically, the fans. One of the reasons there are still droves of empty seats at WEC races is that tickets are still expensive. Events like LM, Sebring and Petit are always going to shift boatloads of entry tickets but IMO the other venues should be either giving them away (register online for free tickets etc.) to gain a huge marketing database or selling them at a huge subsidy, say 5€ or equivalent local currency. Everyone loves a freebie and people who would not usually go will, familys will turn up for a day out rather than just the die-hard dad and one kid (excuse the stereotype), and hopefully, enjoy the day. As GF rightly says, the revenue derived from the fans overall is negligible so such a concession would cost virtually now't in the grand scheme of things. Renault do this yearly in the UK at Donnington and lately Silverstone and the place is packed. While Renault initially subsidize it as a promo event, the tracks make back any initial loss (and possibly more) at the concessions stands - there has to be a way the WEC (or if doomed, it's successor) can pick up on something like this?

Don't crucify me for this next statement, but there is a reason drugs dealers give stuff away at first, once people are hooked they need to feed that addiction and lets be honest, racing is one of the biggest drugs out there !!


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Andy Zarse on October 02, 2012, 11:34:38 am
Regards the baseball world series, my understanding is teams from anywhere in the world are welcome to compete provided they're good enough to qualify. In the Uk we've got erm... Errr...


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Nordic on October 02, 2012, 11:46:02 am
I played rounders at school. Could have gone pro if i wanted.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Nordic on October 02, 2012, 12:16:48 pm


Don't crucify me for this next statement, but there is a reason drugs dealers give stuff away at first, once people are hooked they need to feed that addiction and lets be honest, racing is one of the biggest drugs out there !!

Not so long ago Peugeot gave away shed loads of tickets for the Silverstone 1000k.

What we want to see from racing, and what the companies that put their hands in the their pockets to go racing want are not always the same.

I bet the Bahrain race was seen by far more people than a GrpC race in the mid 80's at Monza. The reason, TV, live feeds etc enable far more viewers than a race only visable to those trackside.



Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: JDS on October 02, 2012, 12:59:44 pm
I bet the Bahrain race was seen by far more people than a GrpC race in the mid 80's at Monza. The reason, TV, live feeds etc enable far more viewers than a race only visable to those trackside.

Totally agree that TV and other live media can take the action to millions of viewers but I'm not so sure I'd agree that it always does; yes, I was sad enough to watch a considerable part of the Bahrain race last weekend on the WEC's streaming feed and only gave up when the Toyota crashed, but ...... the feed showed how many unique views it had had on the bottom of the page and, as best as i can remember (and I may be wrong here as I wasn't paying that much attention to it) I didn't see it go over 2000, that's pretty poor figures for something that is streaming worldwide for 6 hours .... no?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Barry on October 02, 2012, 04:13:51 pm


  I didn't see it go over 2000, that's pretty poor figures for something that is streaming worldwide for 6 hours .... no?

Highest I saw was 4250, still not a huge amount.

One thing was noticeable when Peugeot gave away tickets for the Silverstone 1000 k, the crowd seemed to me about 5 times bigger.
Do think they would have had a bigger crowd at Spa 6 hour this year if the tickets hadn't been 30 €.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: lofty on October 02, 2012, 07:23:55 pm
the trouble with making endurance meetings too popular is every bugger wants to go.then camping pitches get marked out prices go up weird rules come into place like no handcuffs allowed.it will be a dress code next.hooray is sloane slang.i cant remember what for i was drunk when it was explained to me.viz top tip if you dont like the rules camp next to the motorway all weekend and get ratarsed.lm on the cheap every weekend.
p.s.i thought the bahrain race was a blinder.shame the toyota couldnt gaffa tap a tourch over their number board like ferrari did. 


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 02, 2012, 08:50:37 pm
You guys mention freebies being handed out, Indycar hands out bucketloads of them at each race, to help boost attendance (and still nobody showed up the finale in California)
Usually one can walk into a local Honda or Chevy dealer and they'll hand you a fistful of comp tickets.
Funny thing happen to us a couple of years ago at the Indycar race at Kentucky Speedway. We parked in a lot near the track and hopped on a shuttle bus to take to the track, the bus just drove us straight into the track!  Never even checked us for tickets.  Basically if you bothered to show up, they were going to let you in.  But they still couldn't put enough butts in seats to keep a title sponsor interested, and the race has been dropped from the calendar.
JDS, no offence taken at all, the name World Series is a bit OTT, but I guess one has to view it in the context of the era, when the baseball championship was first played, and that name was applied to it.  Baseball was only played in the US at that time, so yes, I suppose it was a "World Series".  The name's stuck, yes its outdated and inaccurate in a literal sense, but it is just baseball...
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Brad Zarse on October 03, 2012, 02:31:30 am
the trouble with making endurance meetings too popular is every bugger wants to go.then camping pitches get marked out prices go up weird rules come into place like no handcuffs allowed.it will be a dress code next.hooray is sloane slang.i cant remember what for i was drunk when it was explained to me.viz top tip if you dont like the rules camp next to the motorway all weekend and get ratarsed.lm on the cheap every weekend.
p.s.i thought the bahrain race was a blinder.shame the toyota couldnt gaffa tap a tourch over their number board like ferrari did.  

Fortunately, Sebring hasn't got to the point where they're banning handcuffs yet.  I can tell you this from personal experience.....

......that is the last time I mess with a Yorkshire born American Copper and expect not to get well and truly stitched up.....

.....In a bizarre twist to the thread, I do believe I was sat on Faxs chair at the time......


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on October 03, 2012, 07:22:43 pm
Neveu Explains WEC’s Move To Austin; "Sebring is for the ALMS and Le Mans is for the WEC... The WEC has it’s own identity now"

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/le-mans-neveu-explains-wecs-move-to-austin/P1 (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/le-mans-neveu-explains-wecs-move-to-austin/P1)


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: goodduck on October 03, 2012, 11:14:07 pm
Im not sure if i understand what is happening to Sebring. its off the WEC calendar but I read this week that WEC teams might still come to race anyway? That would be great to see Audi vs toyota there but are they going to justify the trip if its not for points? and if no WEC teams are there then its a 12 hour ALMS race?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on October 03, 2012, 11:29:10 pm
Im not sure if i understand what is happening to Sebring. its off the WEC calendar but I read this week that WEC teams might still come to race anyway? That would be great to see Audi vs toyota there but are they going to justify the trip if its not for points? and if no WEC teams are there then its a 12 hour ALMS race?

Spot on !

WEC teams could use the race as some kind of pre-season test, they'll only have Silverstone and Spa ahead of Le Mans.
Let's hope some teams make the trip to Sebring !   Audi could do it, as they always test at Sebring, would be great if Toyota follows them.  Rebeillon might be there too, they'll be at the Petit also this year.    Sebring has a big crowd, and is from a sponsors point of view way more interesting than a race on some deserted track in China or Bahrein ...


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 04, 2012, 02:22:31 am
If the COA enforces the same ridiculous spectator regulations for the WEC round, that they have the GP, the only spectators will be rattlensnakes and jackrabbits.
Brad, did you get sent to the red chair at Sebring? If so, what did you do to get exiled there?
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Brad Zarse on October 04, 2012, 03:29:22 pm
Trust me when I tell you, that at the time, which chair I was falling over, completely pickled, was the least of my worries.....

The cropping of this photo, appears to have been intentional....

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/BradRWills/522433_10150707611827365_332607884_n.jpg)


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on October 04, 2012, 10:38:28 pm
Audi at Sebring ?

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20121004/alms/121009920


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: goodduck on October 04, 2012, 11:03:04 pm
thats encouraging.

Quote
“We hope to be able to go and we are planning to go at this stage, but the final decision has not been made,” he said. “It is a very good preparation for the Le Mans 24 Hours.”

Audi has traditionally used Sebring as a Le Mans warm-up and continued to compete in the event after the manufacturer withdrew from the ALMS at the end of 2008. It has missed the race only once, in 2010, since the start of its prototype program in 1999, and has notched up 10 Sebring wins.

Gass also said that Audi's participation would be “a kind of a farewell” to an event that will be out of bounds when LMP1 machinery likely disappears from U.S. sports-car racing after the new, combined ALMS and Grand-Am series debuts in 2014.

“It would be a nice thing to do after all the years,” he said.

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20121004/alms/121009920#ixzz28MmNy4kZ


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: tn*c on October 05, 2012, 05:47:09 pm
I presume that Sebring is still a LM qualifier?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Robbo on October 05, 2012, 08:15:26 pm
I presume that Sebring is still a LM qualifier?

Don't think it will be!


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on October 05, 2012, 10:05:35 pm
Winning Sebring in 2012 does not earn an automatic invitation to the 24 hours of Le Mans as far as I know. Here is a non-exhaustive list of what will get you invited to La Sarthe as I understand it....

1 Previous year's class winners at the 24 Hours of Le Mans

2. ALMS Season winners, (all classes)

3. ELMS season winners, (all classes)

4. Petit Le Mans winners

5 Michelin Green X Challenge season winners.

6 Champions in the Formula Le Mans category get an LMP2 invitation.

I presume that Sebring is still a LM qualifier?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on October 06, 2012, 12:18:12 am
I wonder what will happen with the invitation for the ALMS champions after the merge.
After the 2013 season, LMP champions will get an entry for Le Mans 2014 but chances are high there won't be any LMP1 class left in the new series.   And what about the "merged" series ?   Will they still have any connection or automatic entries with LM ?


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 06, 2012, 02:33:04 am
I suspect the new incarnation of Grand-Am/ALMS will be looking to distance itself from the ACO, and the FIA.  I can see things reverting to the days of IMSA, and Group C, when the Rolex 24 (back then the Sunbank 24) and Sebring were the centerpieces of what was a North American championship, (frankly I can see the Petit LM name being ditched for the Road Atlanta 1000 miler) completely seperate from a FIA sanctioned series.  I'm okay with that too.  The FIA WEC had been a turkey, and I can see the North American Sportscar Championship (my guess for the name) going in a completely different direction. Especially with regard to prototypes.  Personally I would like to see them go with a silhouette formula, I think fans here would buy it.  I'm sure they've looked at the existing ALMS, and Grand-Am prototype car counts, and thought this isn't working.  Getting big prototype counts for one or two races a year isn't going to make for a healthy series, and that's essentially whats been going on with the ALMS.
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Nordic on October 06, 2012, 09:29:30 am
I'm sure your right, The USA will go its own way, not sure about the direction though.

Some kind of silhouette rules, there are already two competing major sets of regs for that type of car, in Japan and the DTM plus others in south America so that would hint at least some cars would be available they wanted to move quickly and have some form of common regs and entice car companies. If they want silhouettes that would be sensible think to do.

What is more likely is they will decide to write their own rules, a few teams will produce sketches and budgets for cars only a few of which will be built and you will end up with a class filled with off the shelf GT cars from Ferrari and Porsche and another for odd cars that look like three wheelers

They will then decide on a common platform and allow teams to put on whatever body they want, powered by a spec engine from Honda or Corvette. When that fails to take off they will sit down and and look across the water to France again and cycle will start again.

Looking back to the heyday of IMSA there were very few homegrown cars, and those that did appear where mostly financed from Japan or Europe.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Boorish Grobian on October 06, 2012, 06:24:17 pm
Your absolutely dead on that, more than any other discipline of racing, sportscar racing is cyclical.  My gut feeling is that right now we're in that part of the cycle where pure prototypes are on the way out.  From my experience at recent ALMS rounds, there just doesn't seem to be much interest in the LMP cars, from either a competitor, or enthusiast perspective.  For most of the ALMS rounds this year, they had three or four LMP1 cars at best, and a bunch of LMP spec cars.  In the paddock, all the spectator buzz was around the GT machinery, with little attention being paid to the Pickett Racing Aston, or Dyson Lola's.  I haven't been to a WEC round, or a race abroad in several years now, I'm basing my opinion purely on what I see over here.  This were my belief that a silhouette formula would work on this side of the Atlantic, Europe may very well be something completely different.  Its always seemed that North America, and Europe have had different ideas about the direction for sportscar racing, the ALMS-ACO alliance being very much the exception, not the rule.
Fax


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Doris on October 07, 2012, 05:23:41 am

Incidentally, in the expression Hooray and up she rises, does anyone know what is it exactly that rises up?


Given the song is (allegedly) about male impotence I'm sure can work that out for yourself.   ;)

Dx


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: monkey on October 10, 2012, 06:57:28 pm

Incidentally, in the expression Hooray and up she rises, does anyone know what is it exactly that rises up?


Given the song is (allegedly) about male impotence I'm sure can work that out for yourself.   ;)

Dx




It’s about a sailor who had too much to drink probably during his last/previous night shore leave and is in need of A) sobering up (throw water over him) and B) punishing (put him in the long boat) a boat that was pulled behind the main sailing ship used as a landing craft, life boat, or place to store valuables during a battle- this was a recognised form of punishment (isolation) during the mid-18th century. The ‘up she rises’ is a reference to the sailors need to vomit - probably as a result of over imbibing rather than the influences of a turbulent ocean – though both may contribute to this of course. Don't remember there being any implied suggestion/reference to his ability or otherwise to sustain a hard on?? But what do I know.  


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on November 02, 2012, 09:57:45 pm
Camera policy at Austin for the F1 this year : http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/09/no-cameras-allowed-at-us-gp.html

If they do the same at the WEC next year, they can put their race up their a**.   Saves me an expensive trip.
FIA bastards !

Well, apparently they've changed their policy ... no restrictions anymore.
http://circuitoftheamericas.com/prohibited-items


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on November 02, 2012, 10:31:09 pm
Where pictures and video are concerned, I think that circuits and race series are never going to hold back the tide. Technology has surpassed any practical means of controlling it, and anyway, allowing race fans to take home their own pictures or video isn't going to reduce their revenue from an event in the smallest amount. Shooting from public areas doesn't impact upon TV or professional photographers in the slightest. When this kind of rule is imposed it generally originates from some numpty official with a bug up his bum. All I ask is that instead of wasting money on pointless "camera police" in the fan areas, that circuits should raise the level of track-side security so that I don't have some eejit with a camera phone and no photo credential shoving his stupid arm into my shot just as the winning car crosses the finish line.



Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Kristof on November 03, 2012, 12:35:03 am
All I ask is that instead of wasting money on pointless "camera police" in the fan areas, that circuits should raise the level of track-side security so that I don't have some eejit with a camera phone and no photo credential shoving his stupid arm into my shot just as the winning car crosses the finish line.

And/or maybe review their credential policy.  It's pretty frustrating sometimes being behind the fence, not being able to get any credentials & then seeing some nitwit walking around with credentials and a point & shoot camera in hand or something like a Rebel XT with a kit lens on it.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on November 03, 2012, 08:39:36 am
It depends on the circuit's policy for trackside access. Sometimes the writers are allowed track-side with their press credential as well as the pro photographers. When you see people with dinky toy cameras, that is probably the reason. Having said that, I too am often amazed at the decisions made in granting photo credentials. You can add to the bargain basement numpties, the contingent of "all the gear and no idea" rich kids who buy all the pro gear and set it all to 'auto' in the hope that shooting 20 frames of each car as it passes might yield one usable image.

All I ask is that instead of wasting money on pointless "camera police" in the fan areas, that circuits should raise the level of track-side security so that I don't have some eejit with a camera phone and no photo credential shoving his stupid arm into my shot just as the winning car crosses the finish line.

And/or maybe review their credential policy.  It's pretty frustrating sometimes being behind the fence, not being able to get any credentials & then seeing some nitwit walking around with credentials and a point & shoot camera in hand or something like a Rebel XT with a kit lens on it.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Brad Zarse on November 03, 2012, 10:38:03 pm
You learn something new every day....I thought pro level kit didn't have the "auto" option..... turns out they do have that option....obviously as you say, for rich kids who want to play photographer.....

I would say though, that the kit you use does not dictate the ability or the credentials of the photographer.  I know a guy who started out using a Minolta Dynax Hybrid compact thing..... I'm sure he got some funny looks at the time...but his images were stunning.   He's a proper pro now, with all the right kit etc - but that's how he started out - and I'm pretty sure you'd all think his work was pretty awesome too.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: JDS on November 04, 2012, 09:35:45 am
I would say though, that the kit you use does not dictate the ability or the credentials of the photographer.  I know a guy who started out using a Minolta Dynax Hybrid compact thing..... I'm sure he got some funny looks at the time...but his images were stunning.   He's a proper pro now, with all the right kit etc - but that's how he started out - and I'm pretty sure you'd all think his work was pretty awesome too.

Brad does make a point, like everything else, it's not the equipment per-se but how you drive it. I'm sure as hell that my pap friends could take a better shot on an Canon/Minolta etc. point 'n' shoot than I could with a pro level EOS. Of course, before anyone points out that it's all in the glass (which indeed, much of it is, that's why pro optics are so expensive) it's also knowing how to frame 'that' perfect shot.


Title: Re: WEC 2013
Post by: Grand_Fromage on November 04, 2012, 09:56:44 am
In the days of film (remember film?) the phrase "all in the glass" was absolutely true. The camera was just a dark box between lens and film. These days, the 'film' is the sensor and you are stuck with what the manufacturer originally fitted.

Some of the best and most memorable pictures have been taken on fairly modest equipment. As the saying goes "the best camera is the camera you have with you". When I'm asked if it's worth investing in 'pro' equipment, my answer is simple. You can't buy your way to better pictures. Pro gear will make taking good pictures easier, but only when you have learned to use it properly. It is also designed to be much more durable than the 'prosumer' stuff which makes it slightly bulkier and considerably heavier, and that weight brings its own set of problems...