Club Arnage

Not sure if this will grow on me over time like the Audi R18 did  :o  any other thoughts

http://www.racer.com/deltawing-michelin-gallery/slideshow/440/ (http://www.racer.com/deltawing-michelin-gallery/slideshow/440/)

Better than the new indycar. Mind you, my barking spider looks better than the new indycar.

Xxxx x xxxx xx xxxx

Remarks Censored.

t.

It's a real marmite car. I don't like it at all myself, but it does look to have a great group of people behind it and proper funding. So, unlike other 'innovative' cars that have been given a LM entry over the last few years, it might just manage more than a few slow laps.

Talking of underfunded, badly designed crap, anyone know whats happening with the Aston? Has it finally been towed down to the woods and torched yet?

I would not like to be anywhere near that if it was doing 200+ down the Mulsanne in a high cross wind.

The fastest Reliant Robin you'll ever see.

I wonder if its stability might be similar...

Lazy B'stard

see this from before

http://www.clubarnage.com/forum/index.php?topic=11111.0

Funny you should mention the Aston. Dave has managed to sell on at least one tub, to the delta wing team!

Maybe its not as well funded as we think, why else take a tub from the worst P1 car ever to turn a wheel.

Good luck to them.

Wish this over-hyped turd would go away, they've been pimping this device for a couple of years now, first as the new generation Indycar, now as a sportscar, and the f@#cking thing has yet to actually turn a wheel.  I've thought all along this a PR stunt, purely to attract interest to the company, and that there's no intention whatsoever of this thing ever actually racing.  Unfortunately the sport is full of attention seeking hucksters/clowns like these.
Speaking of turds, the new Indycar you mention Nickliv?  Is actually the old Indycar with a new areo package.  Its the same old tub that Dallara been selling for a decade, just with a updated (and butt-ugly) facelift to the aerodynamics, and a new engine formula.
Fax

Direct quote from Mulsanne Mike's website: When asked directly about the Aston Martin AMR-One origins of the monocoque (9.13.11 entry), Bowlby offered an initial hesitation followed by, "There's been some speculation...and it is accurate."  The use of the AMR-One tub is pretty straight forward; vastly reduced lead times.  Not to mention lessened hassle as the AMR-One tub has already undergone all the necessary crash testing and meets the latest crash regulations.

Couldn't have said it better !

Two things i'll wait to see.
1 How it tracks going down the Mulsanne. It's always going to have a wheel in the lorry tramlines.
2 With the width of the rear i hope the driver remembers 'if' he passes other cars.
And i wonder what mods were done to the Aston chassis. A right hand tub is virtually impossible to make into a left hand drive.

The only way the Aston chassis can be used, is if it is kept in right hand drive layout.  There is a structural beam running in between the driver and passenger areas, and the space on the left, the passenger side, is physically too small to get into to make it a left hand drive car.  The beam is part of the chassis, and is manufactured as the rest of the chassis is manufactured in carbon fiber with aluminium core.  The beam cannot be removed as it will structurally impare the integrity of the chassis, as well as invalidating the FIA crash test.  Also, there are inserts in the chassis that such things as steering column, power steering unit, pedals, seat belts, kers motors and kers unit are fixed to.  If you changed the car to a left hand drive, these would all have to be repositioned as well, which again, will impare the structural integrity of the chassis.  Also, there is a roll hoop in front of the driver, on the right hand side, and this roll hoop is not in the left hand side, and again, this is an integral part of the chassis.

Turning the Aston chassis to left hand drive, would be possible, but it would take a redesign to move the beam, roll hoop and all the inserts.  This would require new pattern work, new moulds, and then a new chassis that would be required to re pass the FIA crash test.  In reality, I believe that if the Aston chassis is to be used, it will remain in right hand drive layout.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/delta-wing-rolls-out-aston-martin-based-2012-le-mans-car/

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html

Maybe its a redherring and the Delta wing is all new.

@ Shortcut...
The car shown at Petit at the weekend will have just been a mock up, a styling excercise, a show car, hence the LHD/RHD debate is not an issue. the Petit car won't have the Aston tub fitted, or an engine (they still have not decided what to use and as its a none stressed engine it doesn't matter at the moment). If the Aston tub is RHD then the delta car will be RHD when the actual race car surfaces.

Hi there,

was someone from CA at the PLM and did take a few pics of that deltawing-prototype? I'm planning for a "Garage 56" report for the next CA Guide so anything we could publish would be great

Cheers

Werner

Lazy B your dead on, its a mock up-show car, just like everything they've produced.  When this turkey actually turns a wheel, and does a competitive lap time time, then I'll believe it.  Until then its just another stupid publicity stunt by a company trying to draw attention to themselves.
Fax

I never thought I would say this but agree with FAX11 on this one. I am no engineer but even just looking at this abomination I wonder how they expect there to be any weight at all on the front wheels?? How will it go round corners?? Or am I missing something here??

Anyway I really just wanted to drop in a line to celebrate my affinity with FAX.  ;D

Yes.  This will have no roll stiffness (anti-roll) at the front.  Most rear wheel drive cars have most of the roll stiffness at the front, so as the car goes round a corner, the lower stiffness at the back means both rear wheels stay on the deck and have traction.  Even Clarkson gets the gist of this, and his run in the Reliant proved it roll problems.  The Delta Wing will do much the same, just 100 mph faster.  Its leathal

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=130OVZcMEcA

Its in todays Autosport that Prodrive have sold two Aston tubs to Deltawing, so definately using the Aston tub in this. Also no surprise that the last Aston is also dead in the water.

I think its unfair to draw comparisons to the Reliant Robin, a closer affinity has to be with the extremely successful Bond Bug Wedge of the 70's. Only the other day I watched a Discovery channel series on the resurrection of one of these iconic classics, Deltawing would do well to use it as a reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbYsSO7frCY

I think you'll find that was going in a straight line.

The concept seems so flawed I cant see why Dan Gurney and AAR are involved.

I have the utmost respect for him and what he has done over the years, some a bit of me is clinging to the hope they know more than us and it will work and the only reason it was not done before was it was against the rules.

Good luck to them, but I suspect the first race the delta wing does will be on Bonneville, powered by unicorn farts.

Also the brilliantly designed door, if you turned it over, which was likely, you couldn't get out.

Hey, that was a safety feature, to stop you getting run over after you turned it over.

Boys boys, if i remember all you need is a swiss army knife of a stanley knife to cut through those hi-density safety rated vinly doors

(http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/photos-cars/76.jpg)

It would have been quiet cool for it's time, IF it had had 4 wheels.

Agreed Nordic, I'm not pleased to see AAR invloved in this stunt.  That said, I don't know if Dan is just lending his company's name to help stir up some attention for them, or if they're actually going to be running this contraption, on the remote chance this thing ever actually turns a wheel.  Dan's said a few things in recent years that make me wonder a bit how much he's still all there.  Some of his recent interviews seem a little...confusing.  Like the time he said he & Phil Hill were going to set up an American F1 team, Phil's reply was to the effect of "I don't know where the hell Dan got that idea from, we've never even discussed it".
Deltawing may actually build a LMP car at some point, but you know damn well it not going to look anything like this pile of crap they keep rolling out at presentations.  I suspect if they do put a car on the track it will end up looking remarkably conventional.
Fax

One of those tubs was to be built into the car that Jota have paid a hefty deposit for. I bet they are well pleased ;D ;D

The Aston is indeed dead. It doesn't take an expert to see that the car was seriously flawed. The engine was seriously poor and they managed to create a body that managed to combine high drag and low downforce! That must be really difficult to do. They managed to build the racing equivalent of a Briggs and Stratton powered Route Master bus ::)

x2

The world has gone insane.

Couldn't agree more.

According to Motorsport Magazine, testing will begin in december, and - if all goes well - they want to race it at Sebring.  Let's hope they won't get out of the pitlane

+1 on that Dottore. The whole concept should have been shelved the moment it was born.
Phil

It looks all wrong, so therefore it must be wrong.

Maybe these guys do know something we don't and it will go well, got to agree I defies everything that seems logical about what a GT or even a any racing car should be, but...

It does have some creditable people involved after all, lets give it chance.

For some reason I have woken up very charitable today.  

A - Polar moment.  ;)

It's actually turned a wheel............ and a corner - albeit not very fast.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120302/ALMS/120309965

Del

They harp-on about 'the stability of an arrow' but surely that is a spurious analogy. An arrow is stable only because all the weight is at the front and the feathers are at the back. If an arrow was tail heavy it would be completely unstable.

This thing still looks like a death trap to me.

.....and an arrow is not designed to go round corners either.

Del

It is designed to fly though  ;D

I'm not sure this contraption will actually be capable of maintaining a speed that won't make it a menace to everyone else on the cicuit.  Wish this PR stunt would just go away...
Fax

Not only the speed should be a concern.  How is it going to react when a much faster prototype overtakes it at high speeds.  Can't imagine it will be stable wit that small front area.

Find out later who will be suppling the engine for this device.

Looks link its still proceeding and a track run will soon happen!

Why is everyone so negative about something which is trying to break new ground? 

Surely this project is the very essence of everything that racing fanatics stand for?  OK, it might not work, but to call it a death trap?  On what grounds?  It has to pass the same safety tests as any other race car, so it can't be THAT much of a death trap. 

It strikes me, that everyone's an expert when it comes to something different.  I've seen SO much negativity from people (not just on here - everywhere) about how this project is going to fail, how it could never work.  Of those people I doubt any of them are specialist race car designers (indeed the only race car designer I know, takes the same view as me - wait and see how it runs before condemning it to the scrap heap.)

Ultimately, at the very least it's a concept that will either be proved and the whole world will be racing them, or it will fail - But rather than write it off, why not actually see if it works first?  Afterall, they said Man would never fly and would never land on the moon.... sometimes the ideas that everyone thinks won't work, are the ones which set new benchmarks....   

Physics.

I'm completely in favour of innovation and novelty in motorsport, but when something looks right it generally works, and when it looks ugly it usually doesn't. After 100 years of the development of racing machines, nobody has yet improved on a wheel at each corner.

That's not entirely true - Ken Tyrrell came up with a concept which was much better than a wheel at each corner in the P34.  In fact, if that concept had been allowed to continue, we would probably have seen cars with up to 12 wheels.  Unfortunately, much like this project, people dismissed the idea of cars being different, and the FIA ruled that cars should be "conventional" - because they are a bunch of deluded fuddy duddies, who don't like change. 

Science can't explain everything - the speed of light was once thought unbreakable - since proven not to be the case.  Right now, 3 wheels being a balanced and raceable option seems unlikely, but how about people wait and see if they can make it work, before dismissing it out of hand?   If we all kept thinking inside the box all of our lives, we'd never get anywhere.  Who knows -  if the FIA hadn't been so blinkered, someone probably would have come up with a tracks based system that allowed F1 cars to corner flat out - in turn, this technology could easily have found its way onto our road cars, and have re-defined the way in which we think about driving.  Think about it - if the FIA had let those ideas develop, the possibilities of where we could be now, could have been enourmous.

Can you tell my perspective of what is, and isn't possible has been re-aligned by recent events in my life?

Most of the multi wheel concepts were ditched for one reason, the time it took for a wheel change.
Speed of light, latest reports point at equipment irregularities, Einstein's theories still safe, keep up at the back.
Gut feeling, a car which looks right is usually fast , ie Audi Peugeot, Porsche, Lola, Corvette etc.
A car which looks wrong isn't, ie AMR1, which looked a dog from the start.
This car looks wrong, if it gets a set of iffy set of tyres and gets under steer it will end up in LM town centre, IMHO it will not make the race.
A tyre at each corner works, proven. 2 front tyres close together = reliant robin.
It's going to fly, but not in a good sense.

Going to reserve judgement on this until it runs properly but a mate had a good chat with the designer at Petit and when he said can i ask a question, the designer replied. You are going to ask me if it will corner aren't you.  "The answer is absolutely yes it will corner, it is actually more stable than a contentional car with a wheel on each corner."

Well the designer is convinced by his maths or whatever a computer said. We are all judging it too early based entirely on how it looks and how we don't like to think out of the box. Maybe it will be sh*t, but it may completely surprise us all and be a really good car.

My main cornern is the driver judging the width of his car when all he sees is the front end and can't judge how wide the back end is when overtaking another car.

The DW has two major hurdles. It needs to pass scrutineers, and then if it does make it onto the track on test day, it will have to show that it can coexist on the track with more conventional cars. It is bound to take a different line through corners, and it is likely to be destabilised by vortices from other cars.

The word 'science' just means 'knowledge', but science also encompasses the 'scientific method' and knowledge based on evidence and experimental results. It looks to me like the DW is a shot in the dark, designed more on faith, hope and assumption than science. If you reject science you reject evidence-based decision making. All you have left is guesswork and even if you are lucky and you do guess right, you'll have no idea why, so you'll never be able to repeat your success.

I applaud your enthusiasm for the project Brad, your right, most of what we consider conventional racing technology once started out as something radical.  You mention the Tyrrell P34, it worked initially, but was complicated, heavy, over-steered like a pig, and ultimately was done in by advances in tire technology (and the fact that Goodyear couldn't afford to make special front tires for them, and another front tire for everyone else) made it redundant.
My biggest gripe with this turkey is that its come off as a publicity stunt from the start. Originally proposed to be the new generation Indycar (which screams gimmicky & PR stunt as soon as that name gets mentioned), that got shot down, so presto! They add another seat, and headlights, and its a sportscar?  There have been far more ideas that bore the quote "Our computations say it will work" that have failed miserably, than have gone on to be the next Lotus 79, or Williams FW14B.
See you in Florida in next week.
Fax

I'm with Fax on this one. It's a turkey.

It's one thing designing a car to work on relativly smooth short circuits like those in the Indy series, but getting it to work on a bumpy and heavily rutted French public road is another matter altogether.

To me it looks like they spent lots of time and money trying to make this the new indy car, and then once rejected, desperately looked around to see where they could recoup that time and money, by turning it into something it should never have been.

Call me cynical, but there is a nasty element creeping into our favourite race. It's about money, not winning. Look at JLOC and Aston Martin- they both knew they had a rubbish car but went there anyway. They didn't go there to win, they went there for commercial reasons, and that is wrong.

Yes, the big teams such as Audi, Pug and Toyota also have commercial reasons for competing at Le Mans, but their money comes from success driving sales, not the short term financial gain of just being there.

I'd rather have seen Lord Drayson's new Lola at LM this year. That's a car that is chock full of new technology that will have relevance in automotive advancement.

Si

rolls only made one 6 wheeled car as far as i know.it was pink.caterpillers make a horrible noise on tarmac.even at 4 miles an hour.the fia didnt to ban them.they didnt work for the road.hollywood preferes humvees over saracens.but ....we will see

Don't get me wrong - I think it looks wrong too - but I don't know that it won't work, because I'm not a designer, or an aerodynamics guru - In fact, like most people who have an opinion on it, I actually don't know anything about racing car development, other than what pleases my eye, and what has historically been successful.

As for the multi-wheel format - The FIA banned them, stating that cars must have 4 wheels, after someone mentioned the possibility of running 12 wheels!   Williams were developing what looked like a very competitive 6 wheel car at the end of the season in which the P34 ran - right up until they were banned - Ultimately, at that time, all Formula 1 cars were comparatively heavy - and in comparison to the complexities of a modern F1 car, the P34 looks positively antique!  Nothing is too complex for engineers to get their heads around given the right amount of time. 

It is times like this, that I think it would be interesting if there was some kind of parrallel dimension in the universe, where the FIA  had encouraged the development of the multi-wheel technology - I would bet that the "butterfly" effect on how we perceive conventional road cars, and racing cars would be very different if that was the case. 

http://www.freakingnews.com/Three-wheeled-Cars-Pictures--1007.asp (http://www.freakingnews.com/Three-wheeled-Cars-Pictures--1007.asp)

Actually Brad, Tyrrell threw in the towel on the P34 project at the end of 1977, they experimented with all sorts of track, wheelbase, and radiator configuration ideas to try and get it to work, and it mostly just put on weight.  It won in Sweden in 1976 in the hands of Jody Sheckter, but by '77 they were struggling against the newer generation of conventional car-tire combinations, especailly when Lotus introduced the 78, and ground effects was born.  Also as mentioned, Goodyear was having trouble maintaining development of the small front wheels unique to the P34, especially in light of Michelin joining the battle
The Williams you refer to was an experiment tried on a FW07 in winter 1982-82 pre-season testing, and they went as far as to build a FW08 in that configuration.  Williams opting for four rear wheels, rather than front.  The theory being better use of power delivery.  HOWEVER, there were all sorts of problems building a gearbox that would cope with power being delivered through four wheels.  March built a similar car but most people thought of it as a leg pull, and I don't think it ever actually ran.  The FIA did finally put the kabosh on more than six wheels in 1982.
Fax

I always thought that March handled really badly....

But then, my one was only driven at the two rear wheels :)

 (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/BradRWills/Wing_rear_Six_Wheel_March_Ford_on_car.jpg)

I do not get the Delta wing. If it was built to the same dimensions as the LMP cars i.e. weight, length and tunnel size, but still with narrow track at the front and proved quicker i would be impressed. Instead it runs to a different set of rule. If you want to showcase new technology then the moulded battery technology used in the Drayson Lola would be better. But too quiet! I just do not get the Delta wing.
The Williams 6 wheeler if i remember right ran 4 rear wheels the same height as the front. This made for better aerodynamics and it's lap time or projected lap time round Paul Ricard with it's long straight meant it would have been seconds quicker than anything else.

Dr Jonathon Palmer at Goodwood in 94. Article on 6 wheelers at http://8w.forix.com/sixwheelers.html (http://8w.forix.com/sixwheelers.html). Last paragraph sums it up for me.

While it never raced in F1 in period, it was used by Roy Lane as a Hill climb car. Think once he got it working it even won a round.

There are 2 6 wheel march's around, a 2nd has been built up using spares and a genuine std car. This is the car that was run last year in historic F1.

Back in the late 60's BRM were bored with conventional 4 wheel cars thinking they did not have enough to go wrong and were under engineered, so drew up a 7 wheeled car. It never ran. ;)
 

Agreed Rhino, the smaller rear wheels would have made it a bullet down the Mistral.  That was much same same idea Gerek Gardner had for the P34, with the ultra small front wheels, smaller frontal area and all.  But the funny thing about it was, they didn't realize the forces created by the much higher rotation of the little wheels, and the first time Patrick Depailler went bombing down the Hanger Staright at Silverstone, the tires almost sucked themslves right off the rims, Gardner said it scared the living crap out those present to witness the first test of the car.  Didn't realize the March ever actually competed.  I understand the first time they tested it the gearbox broke, and it effectively became a two wheel drive car with four wheels.
Hands down the most bizarre take on the six wheeled idea was Ferrari's 312T2 that had four front wheels at the rear, but they were mounted attached to each other, side by side.  I think it was actually tested at Fiorano.  Would have been a bitch to try and overtake...
Fax
Found this article about the 312T6 as it was known http://f1nostalgia.blogspot.com/2008/09/projetos-no-concretizados-ferrari-312t6.html
Fax

I'll dig up Roy Lane's book, as it mentions the March.  Plus I'm an expert on this as I have the Scalextrix version.

From memory, March lent the gearbox to Lane and he entered several National events, and probably won then.  It did seem to work, but hillclimbing benefits from the extra traction.  However, it didn't seem any quicker than 2WD, and was unreliable (underdeveloped), so the car was converted back to standard.

Having 4 wheels at the back would have caused scrubbing on tight corners, like an artic trailer round a sharp corner, so it must have had loads of understeer.

strange the p34 was the last one of kens  cars to run in anger before he died.even stranger it went straight instead of turning left.thus crashing.

You'd have thought that with 4 steered wheels, it would be sh*t hot at going round corners rather than avoiding them.

I think that the funny little tyres didn't help.  When they restored one of them for racing, didn't they have trouble finding tyres?

http://twitter.com/#!/highcroftracing/status/179348038433783808/photo/1 (http://twitter.com/#!/highcroftracing/status/179348038433783808/photo/1)

@highcroftracing: London calling. Big news coming out of the UK tomorrow. #lm24 #deltawing http://t.co/rYzLLFl9

Will they use it as a mobile chicane at Sebring ?







< cleaned up the link to make it clickable - Steve >

Nissan engine in the delta wing.

Will it run at Sebring?

Well it's there for demo runs, so I suppose it could.

Fingers crossed for a safe take off and landing then!

(https://p.twimg.com/An3HVh-CEAAX4MC.jpg:large)

Click through to Highcroft site. http://www.highcroftracing.com/news/2012/3/13/nissan-to-power-deltawing.html (http://www.highcroftracing.com/news/2012/3/13/nissan-to-power-deltawing.html)

(http://www.highcroftracing.com/storage/687-images/3_13_12_nissan.jpg)

I wanted to really hate it but... it does't actually look too bad.  Not that that means anything but it can help.   Interesting times ahead.

That looks to me like it has 4 wheels in total....

I know I've been quite vocal about wanting to see it run first, but I am upgrading my opinion to "I really hope it kicks some butt!"  - That looks really cool in black.....

??? I thought it always has had 4 wheels - never 3.

Me too ...   Never read anything about only 3 wheels (otherwise Morgan might have a go at LM with their 3-wheeler :D)

http://www.tyrepress.com/News/24404.html
4 tyres just very narrow front ones.

First run out now on you tube. Well it goes round corners........... ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3wlQAvEfmeI

Looking forward to seeing it run in June, :-X

You thought right... ;) ;)

sensible to test on massive car park with nothing to crash into.i couldnt get sound but looked fast enough.bit like riding a bike but with 2 sidecars.

Inside the DeltaWing...

Those look like VERY narrow tyres..

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/photos-inside-the-deltawing/ (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/photos-inside-the-deltawing/)

(http://dlstatic.speedtv.com/imageserve/08Jbdirg0L1Bm/575x459.jpg)

Every time I see it, it brings to mind Evel Knievel's Sky cycle.
Well there's some hope, that didn't fly.

High speed front puncture or blowout, and I would not like to be driving.

If it does run at Sebring could someone look to see if the front tyres are still fixed with 3 studs, seems odd, rear tyres are fitted with one standard nut.
Technical reason?

Cutting edge of technology... with a pair of Citroen 2CV 3-stud wheels on the front.

;D

I think they've gone for 3 nuts for lightness - no need for a big stub axle/hub assembly. There's no (visible) suspension. Only 25% of the weight is at the front, and thats about 120kg, or 19 stone.  And it all has to fit under the bodywork ;D

The trouble is weight transfer.  When you put the brakes on, Newton's laws put a lot more weight on the front and those skinny little Michelins will complain.  Likewise, drop the clutch and it might wheeley.  And approaching these extremes will be lethal

I always thought the key to a good set up was balance cross the axis's and the load transfer when going around corners (Hence off-set Indy cars). if this works it will throw out all common thought and wisdom on race car set up. It must have a pretty trick diff to help pull the front around. If thats the case,hope it doesnt fail.

It's running at Sebring Thursday...http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=74u6ohdab&v=001QkDMjGI5V9ZVrWdmD1o3dCH1EaGSCr6eFCncQBsWSqiYZdfp1YBZqai4uUC-GtVnVbZm23ccjIj74tFaIXZiMa9CJZsuhnrzHRXNGJ5BMoL5d9H-0o6VoVoaI50UR2-H

Jesus H Christ, seriously...
Looks cool is a long way from being a real racing car.
Fax

I'm sure it will be fast down the Mulsanne, no rear wing to hold it back.

Just hope whoever is driving it can hang onto it over the bumps and ruts. With almost no visible front suspension and therefore little damping at the first sign of a bump the whole think will just launch and steering control will go.

The crumple zone must also be compromised by having those wheels so close to together, head on wont they be pushed back into the drivers feet?

I am sure there are some very clever people involved who must have done the sums so are confident it wont be the death trap it looks like.

Beware of engineers who are confident in designs based entirely on computer simulation.

Simulations work for conventional designs because the simulator software is written to model the performance of a configuration that has characteristics that are well understood. The DeltaWing is too novel a design for simulations to be completely reliable.   

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/14030 (http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/14030)

Looking at the length of the car, those front wheels are about 600 metres from the drivers feet. Taking that into consideration and the lack of outright speed, my guess is the drivers feet will already be heading to the bar by the time those wheels get anywhere near them.

As for a lack of suspension, I'm sure there will be some somewhere. Those little bumps on top of the nose box must have something under them?

As for the front tyres.... My guess is this car will enjoy plenty of understeer. Le sarthe's high speed corners are hard on front tyres ( hence everyone switching to wide fronts). I can't see those tyres doing more than 4 laps at a time. Being inside the bodywork, and having three nuts on each wheel won't make for the quickest pits stops.

This car is a real lemon.

Pistonheads take on it:-

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=129&i=25360

Surely it has some kind of actively braked steering system? ie. as the driver turns right, it pulls the inside wheel brakes on? 

One thing is for sure - if this runs successfully then it's going to alter a few ways of thinking.  I guess we'll see how quick it runs in the next few days....

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&client=mv-google&v=Qab8Jkk3yNA

Delta simulation as it appears on ACO / You Tube.

I think their ambition of 3 minutes 30 seconds might be a tad misguided - but we will see!

If that thing does that time or less then I will eat (my hat) 24 bottles of Stella before the end of the race!!

comment made on Sebring fans says it is going to attempt to fly on thursday practice

Let's see after qually

I admit I haven't a clue as to the performance of this thang (spelling as I want it), but not knowing, all I can say is "Oh ye of little faith..."  ;)

edit: We'll have a clue tomorrow. (Thursday, Sebring)

But what's the point of it. I understand the principles of it and liked the concept of it but what is meant to prove? If its deemed to work will they change the rules to make all prototypes run to this.

As stated in post #87, e-m from Sebring itself... http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=74u6ohdab&v=001QkDMjGI5V9ZVrWdmD1o3dCH1EaGSCr6eFCncQBsWSqiYZdfp1YBZqai4uUC-GtVnVbZm23ccjIj74tFaIXZiMa9CJZsuhnrzHRXNGJ5BMoL5d9H-0o6VoVoaI50UR2-H

Don Panoz wants a specific class/race for them in the future.

To my mind they are trying to solve a problem that does not exist.

Three minutes thirty! Coffee all over screen and small puddle of wee on floor ;D ;D ;D ;D

Right then. Let's have a sweep stake. Predict it's fastest time at Le Sarthe and the nearest gets a prize.

I'll start.

Three minutes fifty eight. And that's being generous.

The DW might not be the strangest looking car ever to contest the 24 hours...

Any advances on the 1966 Mini Marcos?  (BTW It was the only British car to finish.)

(http://www.interney.net/blogs/media/blogs/saloma/LeMansMarcosMiniGT.jpg)

http://www.highcroftracing.com/news/2012/3/15/nissan-deltawing-lego-this-is-too-cool.html (http://www.highcroftracing.com/news/2012/3/15/nissan-deltawing-lego-this-is-too-cool.html)

(http://www.highcroftracing.com/storage/post-images/lego3.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1331785143023)

How about the 1950 Cunningham Cadillac Spider "Le Monstre"?

Partial view in the pits 1950
(http://i.imgur.com/fDsvZ.jpg)

and as it is today
(http://i.imgur.com/6VRXC.jpg)
Copyright John Lloyd

4m 02s

I also doubt that it'll go the full distance, so how about an extra bet on laps completed?

 ;D

0m 15seconds

Out of the pits, first corner, straight on at the first Dunlop S and game over!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So negative - really must give it a fighting change

 ;)

garage 56 my *rse .area 51 more like.new tech?its just previously banned stuff ground effect under weight chassis dimensions.why not run on avgass with fully active suspension nos and other magic gear.lego model is great though.hope my lad wants that for xmas.be great to crash into the skirting boards.
time for beer.

Saw it today ... what a joke  ::)

Pics to follow

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae77/Raceshot/Miami/DELTAWING.jpg)

And anyone who went to the classic four years ago would have seen a Mini Marcos in action. It spent its night laps with a safety car following it round because, A, it was seriously slow, B, it had rear lights like tab ends on a foggy night, and C, someone decided to paint it a very dark colour.

So Nissan want their name splashed down the sides then. Bad move.

Is the engine from a Datsun Cherry Turbo?  ;D

 Christ, the driver looks very exposed. Let's hope it doesn't get out of shape on the Mulsanne and end up sideways across the track!

I think there were two marco's (both french) at the classic in 2010, and by the way I think the DW looks terrific.

I was there! There were two Marcos in 2008 LMC, one was white and one green, run by Rae Davis who was also responsible for the 'flying peanut' Austin A35 at the Goodwood Revival. If I recall correctly, the green one had engine problems that put it off the pace, but that is what you get trying to make a BMC A-series engine do more than twice the RPM it was designed for!

Am I mistaken, or did I see a tweet yesterday saying that it ended up in the wall at turn 1?

I may have imagined it, as I was watching the rugby fortified by cheap Guinness on Paddy's day.

You are mistaken.  ::)

Blame the Guinness, but at £2.50 a pint it would have been rude not to partake in volume.

Think I misread ADR Delta for the Deltawing. :o  Guinness goggles to blame.

'Quite allright. I tipped my share of Bud at Sebring Thursday and yesterday.  8) :o ;D

p.s. - a little Captain Morgan too...  :P

Interview with the Delta Wing designer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQUIk_7TkS4

I don't have sound at work, so can't hear what they are saying, but what happened with it at Sebring?

Did it go round the corners ok, etc?

F

Seemed to.  I couldn't tell you it was lightning fast, but it definitely went around corners without too much hassle. 

Marino Franchitti described it as the most stable car he's driven over the bumps of Sebring (of which there are far more, than at say, Le-Mans). 

The opinion right now seems to be that the theory seems to work out as expected - but as with any new car, there are issues - they're working through those issues and hope to be well and truly ready for Le-Mans. 

In the days after Sebring they tested alongside Audi, and completed an entire stint (about an hour and a bit) without any issues.

Can they run for 24hrs? who knows.  Can they produce enough speed to be competitive?  Who knows.  One thing does seem certain though - the Deltawing is not about outright speed, but enough speed to leave them a number of pitstops up at the end of a race.  Remember, this car only produces 300 odd horsepower - it's not likely to be as fast as something like the Audi - they're racing on the basis of the Tortoise vs Hare. 

The speed is meant to be between lmp1 and lmp2.
Yes it can be quick because its using huge rear tunnels which give excellent downforce for little drag. The lmp classes can't use these.
It runs to it's own rules. What is revolutionary about it?

The amount of PR that's been put into it.
I'm surprised they haven't dragged Danika out of the USA to drive it.

It was difficult to judge how fast it was because there were no other cars running with it and no times announced that I heard. Personally I did not like it, it looked like Trotters independent traders meets Batman on a bad day, it may have some comedy value as a one type series. The front tub is very slab sided and not pretty at all, sooner the better it gets killed off IMO.

If they achieve track speed between LMP1 and LMP2, and reliability etc, they will be 10 pit stops up by the end of the race, and will therefore win outright at Le-Mans.

What's revolutionary about it?  Well....does it look like a normal race car to you? 

In addition, it hardly makes any noise.....obviously more than an Audi, but it's quite quiet really.....

I was left a bit "mehhh" about it at Sebring - yes, it's interesting, yes, it's a completely different concept to the kind of cars we currently see - but is it exciting?  Other than its odd look, not really to be honest.  It might just work though.

How's it going to stop, those front tyres look awfully titchy for conventional amounts of front brake. Mind you, they're probably considerably cleverer than me, and will have already thought of that.

All the weight and downforce is at the back, so it doesn't need front brakes :o

Twitchy, yes.  It must have some bad habits that will put it in the kittylitter

Me too. 
Having seen it on track once I didn't bother to make the effort to see it a second time - unlike the Panoz Abruzzi at Petit in 2010, which I made sure I saw every time I could.  Whatever happened to that car?

Dx

Once again, publicity stunt, drumming up attention for a company, no real intention of actually racing, yadda, yadda...
Good lord, doesn't anyone else see through this scam?
Ugh!
For anyone who thinks this is legitimate, I've got a bridge I can sell you.
Fax

For which company?  Nissan have only just announced their involvement so you can't feasibly be talking about them....this has been going on for months.  I don't really understand why anyone would want to build publicity for something that isn't going to race?  Let alone spend millions on developing bespoke parts and consumables (those tyres don't look like a standard item to me!)

Would this be the same bridge that was bought and shipped to the USA, only for the purchaser to realise it wasn't the bridge he thought it was at all?? The bridge that was expected, still being very definitely in place (I saw it last week - TOWER bridge is definitely still in London!).....You can keep that one - we were glad to get shot of it :) 

Like it or not the Delta wing has given everyone something to talk about and brought additional publicity to Le Mans which it today's ecconomic enviroment can only be applauded, I think it looks great and am looking forward to seeing it in June and i suspect even those that don't like it will still be interested to see how it performs, motor racing can not stand still and efforts like this add value and even if it does not lead directly to a new class of cars I am sure parts of it will be useful and everyone laughed at the little lotus with the engine in the back in F! and look what happened.

What happened?  ???

sponsers have got a good deal.lots of interest.reminds me of eddie jordans car hanging on a crane hook.front/back page news.

Delta Wing spent alot of time & money pitching this thing as the next generation Indycar, when it failed to get the bid, they had to try and recoup some of that money somewhere, and suddenly its a sportscar.  They may have thought it would work around a high speed oval, or even on a road course since Indycar is a spec formula, and it wouldn't be racing against anything else.  But the creators of this thing know damn well it will get slaughtered by conventional prototypes (and GT cars).  The idea of it running a 24 Hour race on ten fewer pitstops is great, if it runs without any problems at all.
Hasn't it occured to anyone that if this idea was going to be successful, someone would have tried it by now?  There have been a helluva alot of brilliant designers of racing cars over the years, one would think that at some point one of them would have thought about building something like this, to come to the conclusion it just will not work.
This might be a clever engineering concept, but its not a fricking racing car.  The idea of building a racing car being that your going to build something that will go faster than the opposition. This clearly won't
Fax

Wasn't that the Cooper ???  The Lotus was the one that didn't have a chassis :o

And Fax is right.  Plus starting as an Indycar its thin.  How do you make it two people wide without ruining the aero?  It seems a bit too thin and light at the front to survive a "McNish"  style crash. And the wide bit is going to trip over things

I'm kind of arguing for the sake of it now - but - that's good business sense.  I would bet you good money that this was always in the offing as an alternative to the indycar bid - clues being that the DeltaWing is an Aston Martin AMR ONE chassis (which they couldn't have made any worse) - As a business owner, I do things like this all the time - having more than one use for an investment is essential in these times of austerity!



Yep - just like rear engined F1 cars previously mentioned would never work, just like downforce was a waste of time, just like concorde would break up at supersonic speeds, just like at the strike of midnight in the year 2000 everything in the world stopped working, and just like the world is going to end on 21st December.....

If Marino Franchitti (who does have an agenda, and whose comments should probably be taken with a pinch of salt) is to be believed, the car handles quite well - and in particular is stable over bumps - maybe the concept isn't so flawed after all.

 
What makes you think they can't do that?  The engine is a 1.6 litre turbo - producing 300bhp.  You can buy cars (outside of the US) that use this format, that will run faultlessly for 150,000 miles....that Engine is not overly stressed - they might have electrical gremlins, they might have transmission problems - but they have the backup of a manufacturer who do tend to make pretty reliable drivechains (source: Number of Nissan Sunny's driving around in the local chav estate).


Well - have you ever seen anyone try anything like this?  Can you provide evidence that anyone has worked this concept before?  I doubt it.   The thing is - nobody really knows if this is going to work in its current format - the fact that Nissan have got behind it, indicates that there might be something unexplored in the world of racing - big shock - this is called progress.  There have been many brilliant designers over the years - but most of them had constraints - either regulatory, or financial, or simply constraints of the mind.   



No - The idea of building a race car in this context, is to complete more laps than the opposition in a set time period.  That is the fundamental difference between a sprint series and an endurance series - what Deltawing has done, is throw out the conventional rule book of speed first, economy second, and think laterally about the problem - coming up with a different solution which they are now testing - Surely this should be applauded rather than written off? 

Don't get me wrong - the car is dull - it looks intruiging, but it's quiet, doesn't look all that exciting when it's circulating, and doesn't get my blood pumping - but it IS potentially progress - which COULD lead to the next generation being a little more exciting!  Come June, we'll know if it has potential.  Come next June, we could potentially be seeing more manufacturers taking parts of the DeltaWing into their designs.

And anyway Fax...I'm still P***ed that I didn't get to meet you at Sebring and debate this, and recent F1 history with you, over 2 litres of Jagermeister...I bought a bottle and put it in the freezer especially!.... Hope things have sorted themselves out with the pet (hopefully for the better)

BZ

Agreed Brad, much of this is arguing just for the sake of it.  And likewise, would have prefered to have had this debate in person.  Mooch is hanging in there,  daily medication and sub-q fluids three times a week are keeping the grim reaper at bay, he's doing remarkably well considering the state he was in.  It stinks to have missed Sebring but it will be there next year, and in hindsight I wouldn't change my decision for a second.
Regarding the Delta Wing, its a fun engineering idea, but I just can't take it seriously as a racing car, especially considering how little they've actually shown us up to this point.  Le Mans is only two and a half month's away and they've managed a handful of demonstration laps.  It doesn't actually conform to any of the ACO regs, they've created a class for it just for the hell of it.  Like I said, can't take it very seriously.
I wonder if they've actually thought of how this thing will work if it rains? Which it tends to do at Le Mans...
Fax

http://www.lemans.org/en/news/deltawing-−-nissan-testing-at-sebring-on-video_6663.html (http://www.lemans.org/en/news/deltawing-−-nissan-testing-at-sebring-on-video_6663.html)

Interesting....

Yawn...
It neither looked, or sounded fast.
Put a gun to it, and put it out of its (and our) misery.
Fax

I don't know if I'm having a good day or what, but I'm starting to soften my stance on this car. Yes it's dumb, yes it's ugly, I still think its going to crash once it gets on those rutted Sarthe country roads, but it is at least a serious effort. It's been testing at Sebring, Snetterton in the wet, it's on it's way to France and Spain next week.... Unlike last years no-hoper, the dismal AMR-Gone, they are putting the hours in. Everyone involved is so damn enthusiastic too, they really are hungry for success. In these days of doom and gloom, it's refreshing to see such effort and enthusiasm.

Onlookers at Snetterton said although it didn't look convincingly fast, it looked to be very light on fuel and tyres. I can almost imagine it leading the race in June around lap nine when everyone has stopped for fuel!!!

 I still don't like it, I still don't think it belongs at Le Mans, but I now wish them the very best of luck. They will need it, but good on em.

It's the work of the devil and they have turned you.  ;D

Going soft in your old age Si?!

:)

Well i like it to, it is different it is a breath of fresh air to a field that perhaps is unimaginative, no it might not be the way i want sportscar racing to go but do we really want yet unother no hope LMP2 entry, lokking forward to seeing it in 5 weeks time

http://www.clubarnage.com/forum/index.php?topic=11448.0

Mmmmmmmmmmmm......

I hope your change of heart and the chance of being a film star are not connected!! ;D

Not at all. Couldn't think of anything worse than being on telly.

The revolutionary Nissan DeltaWing completed its first running on the famous 8.5 mile Circuit de la Sarthe today – the home of the upcoming 80th running of the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
 
 Invited to compete under the Automobile Club de l'Ouest’s “Garage 56” classification that showcases new and innovative technology, the Nissan DeltaWing completed 54 laps with drivers Michael Krumm, Satoshi Motoyama and Marino Franchitti at the wheel.
 
 The team enjoyed a virtually trouble-free day and completed every lap but one on a single set of Michelin slick tires. A sole lap on wet tires during a brief rain shower was the only time the team switched tires all day.
 
 Motoyama completed the fastest lap of the day at 3 minutes, 47.980 seconds. The Nissan DeltaWing technical, team led by concept originator Ben Bowlby, believe they are comfortably within reach of their target pace of 3 minutes, 45 seconds as requested by race officials.
 
 With Motoyama not having raced at Le Mans since 1999 and Krumm since 2005, both drivers had to complete a mandatory 10 laps to qualify for the race.
 
 Both easily achieved that goal, Motoyama completing 19 laps and Krumm, 24. With Marino Franchitti handling most of the pre-event testing and development, the Scottish racer only handled 11 laps today – the team taking the opportunity to get his Japanese and German teammates more accustomed with the car.
 
 Krumm was the first man to drive the car before handing over to Motoyama who completed the morning session. Franchitti kicked off the afternoon running which include the sole lap on wet Michelin tires before continuing the driver rotation to Krumm and Motoyama who closed out the day.
 
 The unique Nissan DeltaWing features half the weight, half the horsepower and half the aerodynamic drag of a typical prototype and is expected to enjoy significantly lower tire and fuel consumption.
 
 Powered by a 300 horsepower 1.6 liter Nissan DIG-T turbocharged engine, the Nissan DeltaWing also features specially developed Michelin tires which are four inches wide at the front.
 
 The team will now return to the UK tomorrow to complete final preparations for the 80th running of the 24 Hours of Le Mans. The team transporter will return next weekend before the car goes through pre-event tech inspection in downtown Le Mans at the Place de la Republique.
 
 Official practice kicks off on Wednesday, June 8 at 4:00pm.
 

Wither this quote from? (credit where credit due...)

'Not a Dildo...err..delta fan(yet...'had to warm up to the Indy turbine in '67 too...) but so much for all the naysayers that said it would be off immediately....

ummm...facebook... ;D

If I'm honest, I can't remember - I clicked to see the article, and copied it....no doubt if you put the first couple of lines into Google you'd find it though!

Quite interesting wasn't it. It looks like there were no reliability issues, which was a good step. It ran 50+ laps on the same set of tyres (which are said to still have plenty of life left in them... 6-7 stints on one set??). The only unanswered question is how many laps did it do on a tank of fuel? If it can keep out of the garage, this car could finish top ten easily.

Still fricking ugly, but impressive none the less.

Si

How very interesting - I have to confess to thinking this would never make it into the pit lane less alone out of it. And now I am looking to forward to seeing it in the flesh so to speak.

Not sure what a 'fricking' is but am guessing that it is not a good thing? In which case I agree – ugly!!

See you there..... NEXT WEEK - team Monkey.

Pretty amazing re' the tyres, I must say.  If you'd seen how its b*llocks - sorry, *rse - stepped out when it got to the end of the pit straight you'd be even more suprised by such good tyre wear.  I still don't know what I think of it really but all in all I'm for experimentation.  Without it I suppose we'd all still be walking everywhere and we can't have that now, can we?

It still looks like a dick on wheels to me.

Brad.... your information astounds me!!
Having been stood next to you at Sebring when The DW slid past I still find it hard to believe its at LM!!
However... I still think me being allowed to roll the Kenworth truck back and forth in gear after the 'fun 'fet festival was equally as groundbreaking for different reasons!!! :)

Can't be arsed to read the 11 pages, but boy, is it quick! One lap it was up the chuff of the Audi, the next lap some way in front. it's got my attention for the race, but the only problem I saw was regarding the lights, whch have two in the nose and two wide set at the rear. More than once I saw a marshal waving a blue flag to inform the driver that he was overtaking himself!

(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u216/lynxd67/Le%20Mans%20Practice%202012/DSC_2335.jpg)

Oh, does that give us a lead on Mr. termite's equipment? ;D

Just looking at the time sheets for yesterday's free practice.  DeltaWing - 3:34.576  :o

At the time that was the third fastest time outside the Audis and Toyotas, and just a few tenths of Seabass in the Dome Pesca. That's pretty damn quick.

Sadly, it disappeared somewhere out in the country at around 23.00.  Don't know what happened to it as we didn't have RLM on.  Guess I'll have to look at the ACO website.  Did it fail?

From what I've understood on Eurosports 24 minutes, they hit the curb quite hard at Tertre Rouge, which made the fire extinguisher go off.  They couldn't start the giant cock up again.

typical once its shot its load it went limp and wouldn't work again  ::)

 DSC reports today that the problem was a master switch. When it landed after hitting the kerb the switch got knocked off, but as its under the bodywork (???) which the driver could not lift unassisted, then they had to sit it out.

Now call me daft, but I'm sure the idea of a master switch is to be able to turn the cars electrical systems on and off in case of an emergency. Surely then it needs to be somewhere where you can actually get to it?

Saw the "wheeled d*ck" at Sebring this year doing glorified parade laps.  I can't wait to see it in game conditions.  I will be blown away if/when it starts passing other P1 cars.  Like someone else said, we all used to walk before the first car...well, here we go.

Think they're going to need a pressure washer to get all of that foam out of it if the fire extinguisher went off!

Other P1 cars??? Which is the first???  ???

Besides, being unclassified itself, you'd be comparing apples and oranges, no???  ;)

It seemed to be back on song last night, running mid-pack amongst P2s although they are spending a lot of time tweaking the thing, or so it seems.  But at least it's got through all the quali sessions.  Full marks for effort so far.

RLM interviewed one of the team members last night. When questioned about that 3:34 lap he explained that they had a soft set of tyres and a different engine map to try out, so decided to let it off the leash. He said there was more to come and the data suggested that had it been a clear track a sub 3:30 would have been easily reached. He added the car wasn't anywhere near its full potential yet. They are hoping to run it without restriction at one of the ALMS races later in the season.

It still looks like a cock, but you have to hand it to them, the concept works very well indeed.

Whatever turns you on Si...  ;D ;D

>Martini...LB

Ah, the good old Jersey humour kicking in.

 ;D

You are so hurtful at times... that is really cheap...

>Martini...LB

We frustrated engineers would love to see it with all the skin off.  See how the suspension sets up and how the running gear works.

I really don't want to like it but can't help myself pulling for it.

No risk, no reward.

In NASCAR, innovation is different colored duct tape.

 Wine is chilling, Stella is ready, Makers Mark for later!  Kidneys are on notice!