Club Arnage

Out this weekend   (http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTc5MTUzOTAxMl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwODQzMjg3NA@@._V1._SY317_.jpg)

http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi2962070809/

I have  read the write up for this docufilm and it was good reading.
I didn't know Sid Watkins was a really close pal until I read the articles.

Its a must for me

Never my favourite driver but decent movies on motor racing are so rare and this has had such good reviews that I'm bound to get it when the DVD comes out.

I won't be wasting a second of my life watching a film about this idiot.

Senna was a twat. The only bigger twats were the spineless people who let him get away with his antics.

Agreed Andy, have better things to do, like clean the toilet, tham watch a glorification of that pompous, spoiled, ill-mannered asshole.  The people I really feel sorry for are the poor bastards who have bought into the whole "Senna the legend" bullshit.  Most of which aren't old enough to rememeber what a jerk he was, they've just read the books written by hacks trying to make money off of a dead celebrity, the fact that most of these writers couldn't stand the guy when he was alive, but will gladly paint him as a saint in the name of making a few bucks.
Fax

Agree with fax and Andy, but I think I will watch the film. Its clearly not a warts'n'all effort, but if you strip off the bullshit and dubious tactics he was one hell of a quick driver.

Definately one of racing's idiots and I have no argument with the venerable Messrs Fax and Zarse's analyses.  However, big screen motorsport is still rare enough for it to deserve a look from me.

An Arrogant twatt yes, Dangerous probably, Genius driver defiantly, watched him at the Silverstone GP 90,91,92,93 and he was class of the field,  Donnington in the wet was incredible.

I have a copy of the film.
Don't get too excited. There's very little there that those who follow the sport haven't seen before.

Right up until he ran out of fuel on the last lap :)

The only time I think I'd disagree with the old man here, is 1990 - he had a pretty dominant car that year, and he stacked it at Silverstone about 1/3 of the way in.  92 and 93, he was ragging the absolute balls off the car, and yes, it was clear even as a 10/11/12 year old that he was a very gifted individual.

Yes, Senna tainted his name with some of his antics - no, he wasn't the ultimate champion - no he wasn't really the most dominant driver of all time - but for me, the sport (and my childhood) would have been much the poorer without him. 

What I'm getting at, is that at least it was interesting - there was actually something controversial to watch.  Since then, we've had what feels like a lifetime of dominance from Schumacher, interspersed with the occassional fin, spaniard or brit who could win the title - but did any of them really make you want to turn on the TV, or go to a race, to see what trick they'd try next???  No...me neither - which is why, whilst I can't say that Senna was the greatest driver to grace the track - he was at least, one of the most interesting.

I, for what it is worth, totally agree with Brad. In those days people did not change the rules to make it interesting it was already. And while never a total fan of his I would agree that he had a lot of speed and guts and was a natural behind the wheel and while some of his tactics were less than honest it did not stop him having a huge following from both spectators (no not two) and drivers.

>Martini...LB

I have also seen the movie and whatever your views are of the man, the movie is well put together and definitely worth a watch.

Take it for what it is - leaves stuff out but he covered a lot in his 34 years.

Brought my wife who hates F1. She ended up in tears - as did most of the screening. Never saw so many blokes choked, sitting in their seats post credits.

Very moving - everyone should see it. On the big screen.

Blokes & wife in tears?  Jesus H Christ get a grip, the guy drove racing cars, he wasn't a head of state, he didn't cure cancer, he didn't solve the Israeli-Palestine conflict, he wasn't a heroic warrior...the dude was a f**k*ng racing car driver.  That was the problem with that jerk-off all along, he thought he was a hell of alot more important than he ever actually was.
Fax

Marley & Me was just a f**kin' dog but it still brought tears to our household.
As Irish says - take it for what it is.

That's the best come-back I've heard in a long time!  :laugh:

Saw the film on the big screen last night, and it was well worth the effort. Even though it's inevitably biased (like most documentaries that are out to prove a point of view), it did show some interesting sides (the drivers briefings etc) that are genuinely new and offer a different perspective. Some pantomime baddies too - the French then-head-of FIA switching Senna's pole position to the dirty side of the track at Japan, with fellow countryman Prost on the clean side in 2nd.

ACO & Peugeot, anyone?  ;D

Aside from the subject matter, as a film it was very good - no narrative, no interviews with anyone other than in period (ie they could have stuffed the time with lots of Brundle et all saying how amazing Senna was etc) - they only used footage shot at the time.

Top drawer fax, I've (almost) just shat myself. Good to see you're on form.

H

At the end of the day any driver that makes it to F1 is going to be talented excluding the bought seats !! But i personally think he was a fantastic driver (personally alboreto and alesi were my favourites at the time but thats my ferrari bias) and can help thinking if he was British some of the opinions on this forum would be different.
Plus his charity is still making a hell of a lot of money for street kids in Brazil, so at least he left some good legacy behind him.

Thanks Big H, I was inspired last night (mostly by several Spaten Optimator's and a few hefty Jagermeister's)
Enzo, like you I was a fan of Michele & Jean, but also Sandro Naninni and Derrick Warrick.  Certainly not the most successful drivers of the era, but still very talented and likeable men.
Fax

In the scheme of racing drivers achievements however, Senna's can be counted as numerous on the track, and truly inspiring off of it. 

The Senna "Branding" still makes millions, even today - the majority of which, goes to charity.  The "Sennihna" (Little Senna) cartoon raised hundreds of millions, and what did he take from it?  Very little actually - You'll find that a large proportion of the money Senna made went to charities in Brazil to help the countries most impoverished children. 

Sure, he was hardly poor, and yes, technically, what he did for a living, was drive racing cars, but to be blinkered enough to state that this was all he did, is at best, ill informed. 

How many racing drivers, sports personalities, or even human beings generally, can say that they put in place a legacy which made, and continues to make a genuine difference to the lives of those less fortunate? 

Actually Brad, I can't comment on practices abroad, but over here athletes setting up charities is quite common, there's no great distinction in that.  When one makes millions, the decent thing to do is to help the less fortunate.  Its just being accountable as a human being.  As you say, there are athletes who's charities are contributing millions to causes, long after their playing days are over. He was a spoiled, pampered mommy & daddy's boy from a wealthy Sao Paulo family, and was usually reflected in the way he conducted himself, he was arrogant, aloof, and usually had little time for fans or media, and clearly believed that he didn't have to play by the same rules as his colleagues.
Fax

Not over here Fax. Lots of sportsmen do good work for charidee, but they don't like to talk about it (unless they've got a book coming out). They give freely of their time to be fair, but to my eyes they tend to be precious about it and don't like to talk to the ordinary folk. I cant think of many who stick their hand in their pocket and fork out actual money. So on that front, I guess you can't knock Senna, maybe that's the way in Brazil too?

But nor do I buy into this idea that Senna made racing interesting. He ruinned it in my eyes. He was responsible for setting the tone that allowed Schumaker (then Alonso at al) to prosper in the cheating stakes, so it seems odd to me to bemoan what happened the next ten years following Senna's death when he was partly responsible for causing it. When he crashed at Imola I cheered. I never do that when anyone crashes and obviously I never wanted him dead. But I hated him that much for what he did to the sport I loved.

As I've said before, I truly disliked Mansell out of the car, but as a driver he was amazing. But I hated Senna more in the car than out. His demeanour in interviews was a dreary insouciance, as if his time was being wasted talking to the public. It was the danger he caused on track that got my goat.

On the upside, I'm enjoying F1 at the moment, there's some great guys involved in the sport again. I know it's all a bit contrived, but the races have at least kept me awake.

Sports without controversy is boring.  This is why we still rely on the human eye in Football (Soccer to those across the pond who don't play real sports) and haven't reverted to the clinical nature of automated refereeing, which is no doubt possible with technology these days.

You surely cannot seriously blame Senna for the actions of Schumacher et al?  Schumacher only really came to the fore once Senna was gone and whilst I agree, that it was in his nature to push the boundaries to the absolute limit, I'm not sure I agree that he was a bona fide cheat. Schumacher however, CLEARLY moved across on Hill in 94 - a clear act of cheating having already smashed himself into the wall.

My memory is Hazy, but I seem to recall the Suzuka Showdown in 1990, when JM Balestre had "decided" that pole position was on the dusty side of the track, when co-incidentally Alain Prost was on the preferred side - Prost needed to win to have any chance of the title.  Senna took Prost off at the first corner, after the lack of grip had left him in  second with barely 100m of the race gone.  I can't say I really saw that as cheating - other than on the part of Balestre for which, and I believe he got his commupence when Prost was shunted off.

It's a tough call really - comparing it to football again, I disliked Robbie Savage, and I still dislike Neil Warnock, Arsene Wenger, Brendan Rodgers, Welsh football teams and so on, but I also think that whatever their gamesmanship level, football would have been a poorer place without them.  So for me, on that level, Senna made F1 interesting. 

Danger?  This is motor racing - if you don't like a bit of danger, you're watching the wrong sport.

All of this with the caveat however, that (whilst I was only 13 at the time) I also cheered when Senna crashed - but at the time, I was excited because he had become the pantomime villain to my childhood hero (who I only really saw as a helmet, instead of a person).  I would have cheered initially if Robbie Savage had gone down injured, or Neil Warnock had been clattered by a flying football boot, or the whole of Swansea had been blown up - It's natural for these pantomine villains.

I am also finding myself staying awake for GP's these days, whereas before, once the start was done, it all seemed like a good opportunity for a kip before the last lap.......
 

There is no difference in what senna did to Prost and what happened to Hill.

Both were calculated to punt the other person of with no regard for those following or the marshals who then had to venture to trackside to sort it out.

At least Senna had the grace to fess up. IMHO he should have been docked points, surprised that did not happen as everyone seems to think Balestre favoured Prost, Senna gave him the perfect chance to act and hand the title to Prost.

The reason Senna is blamed for Schumacher et al is that he set the precedent to drive in the way he did. Before then the sporting element of the rules were clear and the risks apparent.

The really sad thing is that Senna was the greatest driver of his era, and would have won just as much with out the needless incident's. the same is true of Schumacher. Very talented and both in different eras would have stood with the greats but for the flaws they are judged by now.

There is no difference, EXCEPT for the injustice of the situation in the first place.  Schumacher drove off the road, knew he couldn't continue and make a concerted effort to destroy Hills chance to beat him.

Senna was unjustly forced to the wrong side of the track, and took his revenge.  Yes, there was little regard for the safety of Prost, or the marshalls, for which, I think  Senna probably had some regrets - but if someone was trying to take away the most important thing in your life, by rigging an event, you'd probably see red too. 

In contrast, someone was trying to take Schumachers crown, but was doing so in a completely fair manner. 

For me, Senna was the rightful champion of 1990.
However Michael Schumacher was not the rightful champion of 1994.

But as we all know - that's not how it was allowed to happen.

Brad, I'm not buying any of your argument. Your idea that sport without controversy is boring, is ridiculous, something I would expect to hear from a pro wrestling enthusiast.  If you need controversy to keep your sport interesting, then I would say its deeply flawed to begin with.  Sport is about competition, controversy spoils it.  Would you rather see a Nadal-Federer match decided by brilliant shot making, or a controversial line call?
Senna's legacy is that he corrupted the racers ethic, made dirty driving acceptable.
Keke Rosberg once remarked about how when he made his F1 debut, Mario Andretti took him aside and said "I know how things are in the Atlantics, or F3, and F2, here in F1 we do things differently"  Keke said he nodded his head, knew that Mario said all he needed to say.  He was now racing with the best, immature tactics on the track were not acceptable, and they would not be tolerated.  All of the drivers voiced their complaints about Senna's antics from the second he arrived in F1, but because those in charge at the time were a bunch of spineless jellyfish, they let hin get away with it.  Its the reason you see all of the over-officiating of races today.  Until Senna came along, the officials didn't have to police the drivers, they did it themselves.
Fax

Watched this film for the first time last night on ESPN2 over here. Good lord what a mountain of crap!  Can't beleive viewers have actually bought into this Senna worship BS film?  Amazing how they skipped over him deliberately swerving at colleagues, or nerfing them off the road, hs paranoid rambling.  That wasn't even the best Senna bio I've seen!  The 1993 Duke video being better than that garbage...
My head is ready to explode at the thought that someone believed this was good! That was a steaming pile of pooh!  It was mostly footage that anyone who was a enthusiast during that era has seen. It was just a lame tribute to Brazil's deeply flawed hero (but one wouldn't know that from this blithering bullsh*t).
Jesus that was a hour of my life wasted...
Fax

... and another five minutes moaning about it!!!   ;D

still have not watched this is new in dvd wrapper just never in the mood for it

For what its worth, here is my take on Senna.

He had success in karting but never beat Terry Fullerton. He had success in British F3, winning the championship in 1983, but pretty much either won or crashed out, particularly in the second part of the season. This style would characterise his F1 career. There had been uncompromising F1 drivers, like Mario Andretti and others that came after him like Schumacher, but Senna had more than fearlessness of Mario or arrogance of Michael.   

He was undoubtedly a quick driver, but it was his uncompromising and religious self belief that set him apart. This confidence manifested itself on the circuit. Fellow competitors in F1 soon discovered that if you got in his way, or attempted to block a passing manoeuvre, he would rather have an accident than allow anyone to get the better of him. I don't think it was the same style of calculated bullying and blatant cheating that bought Schumacher his world championships, but a simple belief that he was the best, and deserved to win at any cost. His attitude did not endear him to the other drivers, and most significantly to his team mates. It polarised attitudes towards him by the press and the general public. Race fans either loved him or hated him, it was almost impossible to be neutral.

Love him or hate him, the Senna movie is worth a watch, but I wouldn't walk a mile...

This so-called film is a load of old shyte about an oaf.



Of course I haven't actually seen the film, but when I do, needless to say, my reaction will be similar.  >:D



PS KPY did kindly give me a copy DVD at Le Mans in 2011 but the disc was corrupted and it wouldn't play nicely. A bit like Senna himself.

In hindsight I was a bit over the top in my remarks last evening, things like that happen when you've spent the night at the pub with some mates watching olympic coverage.  But my thoughts are essentially unchanged, it paints a very biased, sainted view of Senna, which or course was far from reality.  The film does include some remarkable footage from the Imola weekend in 1994.
The bit I found the most interesting was a very heated exchange between Sir JYS and Ayrton, when Jackie mentions that Ayrton had been involved in more collisions in the past 36 month's than the rest of the previous world champions had collectively in their careers.
Some interesting footage from the era, but won't go to any efffort to seek it out again.
Fax

I just saw the trailer of the film on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOzq927y15o) and it shows footage which I have seen before, and commented in a better way. The Top Gear documentation is ok but maybe this is due to Clarkson trying to be cool and younger than he is. This is better, more insights, youtube for "Ayrton Senna - The Right To Win". Well, he went into the wall at Imola without any sign of breaking. Has the world just lost another Jesus Christ because he was just "above" the car in that moment to see if all is well ? Or not... I can't say. I have no personal memory of him. Still, very sad and just wrong to see someone die in a race car.

BTW, great dicussion so far... I like that.

I have seen the DVD, as it was a Christmas present it was only proper to watch it

once

I'm amazingly unlikely to ever waste the time again


can you tell I was unimpressed?

Plus 1, I downloaded it when it came out and deleted it as soon as I watched it. For me it was a bit like those 999 rescue programs where everything is glamourised over the top around the main subject.
One bit that tickled me was the drivers briefing with Mansell wearing a cap which was only missing his ferret collection. F**k me, am I really that old  now. ::)

And , adding a bit more, i enjoyed the Audi - Truth in 24 and also TT, Closer to the Edge  hundreds of more times than Senna. I was at Monaco the following race after Senna died and I'll never forget the 2 front row empty grid places with just the flags painted at the front for Senna and Roland Ratzenberger, (Le Mans competitor as well) who also lost his life at San Marino the previous race.

I'm a little worried because Prof Sid Watkins liked Senna, and Sid seems a sensible chap.

Sid also says wonderful things about Bernie Ecclestone, so I'm rapidly changing my opinion ::)

Sid says wonderful things about BCE because, back when he had scruples, he helped Sid make tremendous improvements on safety, in particular in helping Sid exert pressure over circuit operators in order to get things brought up to scratch. Came as a real surprise to me too when I read Sids first book, knowing more of BCE now than I was aware of back then.

Jenks also adored Senna. If I have to single out one motor sporting hero it has to be Jenks. I also have a soft spot for BCE. Yes he is a bit of a tw*t sometimes, but you have to hand it to him, he has transformed F1. There is an element of panto villain about him but he has always fought his corner and stood up for what he believes is right (wether right or wrong is a matter of debate). Those who do know the real BCE always speak kindly of him, so I suspect he has a good side. I sometimes wish we had Bernie running the country. We certainly would  not be in the sh*t with him at the helm!

As for Senna and the film. I dislike both.

So how shall I tell my 12 year old to stick the senna DVD as he bought it for my birthday, or shall I watch it once or shall I list it on the sell and swap thread ???

Answers on a postcard please ;)

It was actually in qualifying for the SAME race and the day before Senna's demise.


In fact, Max Mosely (to his credit) went to Roland's funeral when all the big names and media were obsessing over Senna's.

I hope you will do what any gracious person would on receiving an awkward gift!

Say thanks thats brilliant, watch it (preferably with him) pointing out any good bits (there must be something there), pointing out also "that doesnt seem very sporting behaviour" where appropriate, and then leave it on your DVD shelf!

:)

Good call Fran, very diplomatic.

You could also tell him he could borrow it if he wanted to...

>Martini...LB

It did come out a bit wrong but thats what I meant. 2 litres of red wine to blame  ;D

Good shout Fran

Saw it on telly a few months ago, I admired Senna as a driver, few faster in my view but marred by his win at all costs attitude and watching the film reinforced that view.

I think the film gave a pretty good account of his life and times, worth watching and maybe the sort of film you can watch again as you will pick up different elements.

 

not many drivers have had so many tributes,statues,painyings,bust,t-shirts,stickers,fan-clubs,films etc.etc made about them seeing the amount of fresh flowers pictures and cards on this memorial made all the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.race team managers and sponsers paid ayrton to bring results.which he did.they didnt want to have dinner with him every sunday lunch time.many people who are dedicated to their sport,job,hobby arent easy to get on with,arrogant whatever but perhaps thats just how they are.great driver.totally commited.thrilling to watch.just ask how many modern drivers would want to have been matched against him.

'Was far from a Senna fan, (no Jimmy was he...) and would not have paid to see it. It was on SPEED here tho', 'watched it, and am glad I did. No more to be said.