Club Arnage

Did anyone see the Senna tribute on last weeks Top Gear??? I have to admit to not knowing an awfull lot about that era of racing but I never realised what a dirty player of the game he was.

You can kinda understand Schumacher trying to run Rubens into the wall though.....

Schumacher pretending to be the "Stig" on Top Gear then Rubens beating the Stigs lap time and walking around with a "I beat the stig" T-shirt on  ;D ;D ;D

That's better - I always thought that Schumi deserved his own thread.  ;D

I refer to my post on the Mercedes thread, my feelings haven't changed in the two hours or so.
Fax

Sorry dont believe Scummi deserves his own thread..... I going back to the other one....

Hey, stop trying to divert the subject............

Me ??? That's pure sarcasm... I'm not a great fan of F1 and never was (Ok, long ago in 1978 I was - Mario Andretti in Zolder, my first race ever - I was 9 years old and that hooked me to motor sport).
I've never been a fan of Mercedes or Ferrari and you should be able to see from my criticism in the cross post that I don't think Mercedes have the cards on the table concerning their AMG GT3 car. Pagani springs to mind.
I just read a good comment in a German newspaper (www.derwesten.de only in German I'm afraid but very good) about Schumacher. His times are gone but he doesn't get it. He should stop before somebody comes to death. Jesus, nearly killing his ex team mate to gain 10th place (in words: tenths place - nill points) in a race that nobody is gives a damn on anyway. He's been over the top for me a long time ago. Does that put it right ? BTW, in my book HH Frentzen was the better driver in their youth but you all know how it turned out.
Foock, that's the second time in 24 hours that I have to rectify myself on here. I need a break...  ;)

He is not Italian and you cannot spell the other word properly   ;D ;D

>Martini...LB

Hi Martini,
             Must be from Scunthorpe then ;D
Phil

Morning Phil

You got that one right

Hope you are keeping well, missed you this year.

>Martini...LB

My twopenny worth: -

Schumacher/Ferrari made F1 VERY boring in the noughties and I for one switched off.  Couldn't stand watching the arrogant tw^t grinning on the podium.

So imagine my "pleasure" on hearing that Count Van Arrogant B'stard was returning to drive "vor ze Farzerland" in an ersatz-Mercedes.

He's done nothing to maintain his past success, he's blamed everyone/thing but himself for being outclassed by Nico Rosberg [respect] and now he's got all but the hard core Schuey fans hating him.

All I hope is that MercedesGP have got a decent ace up the sleeve and ditch the arrogant pr1ck this winter and replace him with [I suspect] another German.

I, for one, hope that Sutil might be given a chance in a half-decent car and that way the Chermans keep an all German driver line-up.

Senna?

Legend!

Paul.

My two cents worth, most of the juvenile on-track behavior we see in motor racing now can be squarely laid at the feet of one Ayrton Senna de Sliva. Until he came into F1 there was a unwritten code of coduct, a racers ethic if you like.  It was a gentlemans sport, played by adults, especially at the highest levels (read F1).  Senna came along and acted like a complete twat, swerving at people on the track, deliberately making contact, overall behaving like a thug ontrack, and a spoiled little prima donna off it.  There was nothng dignified or honourable about his antics.  The other drivers compained endlessly about his conduct to the FIA, but the FIA being their usual spineless selves did nothing, and the result being all the young drivers coming up through karting and the junior formulas saw Senna getting away with all sorts of crap and assumed they could too.  Schumacher being a perfect example.  His taking Reubens almost into the pitwall was a carbon copy of what Senna did to Prost at Estoril in 1988.  Its absolutely mind-boggling!  No regard for the safety of your colleague (who used to be your faithful teamate), or for the dozens of people standing along the pitwall!  Both Schumacher & Senna behaved like immature punks on the track, and arrogant, spoiled asses off of it.
Fax

I did read in the Sun (it must therefore be true) that Scummi actually apologiesed, having watched the video, apparently appreciating how bad it looked! I can only imagine someone tying him to a chair a forcing him to watch it and then applying electrical shocks to his privates to gain such a remark.

What really annoys me is that almost every competition licence holder in the country will have been watching that... that's why they race in the first place... and the the FIA have effectively said that deliberately trying to put someone in the wall is a less serious offence than dicking around under the safety car.

Both MS and Senna are tainted. Both could drive very very well, maybe even the best of thier generations, but at what cost?

Watching Vettal I sense he is going the same way, maybe something to do with RedBull as Webber is no saint and makes plenty of rash ill judged moves.

As Zarse points out this trickes down tho the lower levels of wannbes who feel they are also the best and the i am comeing thru at whatever cost or the your not passing here, I would rather die than let you has corrupted the sport.

Looking back its always easy to put on the rose tinted glasses, there were villans then as well, One driver used to drive off line in the hope of flicking up stones others used to sweep across the track defending postion (which is why we now have the one move rule) but what I saw at the weekend was so cold and delibrate and at such high speed the result of which could have led to a massive crash maiming and killing the crowd that would have brought a swift headline seeking banning and modifying the sport.

Warwick has stated that MS should have got the black flag, but review of the incedent took too long, crap, I saw it and once I had regained my senses knew exactly what I had seen and knew exactly what should be done. Sadly the sniper in the grandstand had long left, bored to tears i guess.
Merc know all about bad press and motorsport so should do the decent thing and put him out to grass before he really does kill either himself or someone else.

I didn't like the action one bit, but I can't deny laughing at his initial reaction: "He passed me so I gave him too much space"

I must be in a minority here. I always loved watching Senna drive  :o yes he was reckless at times but sheer brilliant as well & always gave 110% percent.
The 1st GP I went to was Brands 86 being 17 & seeing the black & gold cars with a yellow helmet was a real eye opener.

I remember watching I think it was Mexico when he thought he could go through a corner flat when no-one else did. it ended up badly but he tried it. also who can forget the last lap blinders in qualifying :o
He believed the man upstairs would always look out for him. up till Imola he was right.

I for one miss him :'( 

Big H,the stage is yours  ;D

Do not, repeat NOT, Google "yellow helmet" and hit the "I feel lucky" button.

Or indeed, "blue waffle".

You will need mind bleach.

We have agreed to disagree on the subject of Senna on a number of occasions Fax (nice to hear from you as always) so obviously I can't let this go completely unchallenged. :-)  I thought the tribute on Top Gear was pretty balanced really - it emphasised his ruthless desire to win - while respecting and admiring his extraordinary ability to control and drive a racing car. This was supported by the contributions and comments of a number of F1 drivers past and present - which was interesting.

As for the move by Schumacher on Sunday - I was astonished and slightly saddened by it really - it was all rather desperate and pathetic - so find myself agreeing with you wholeheartedly FAX with regard to that

I guess I should know by now to believe what you say AZ (I hope you are well by the way?) But curiosity got the better of me and as you said don't – then how could I not? The 'Yellow helmet' search resulted in a slightly macabre site outlining a theory on the demise of the great A Senna - but told us nothing more than we already knew. So feeling comforted that nothing too bad could happen I embarked on search number two. I was about to drink a nice cup of tea and wonder now if I will ever again feel comfortable imbibing this fine beverage  - as it is in danger of being forever associated with the shocking results of the 'blue waffle' search from which I may never recover.

AZ I will never question anything you say again. :-)

Well perhaps not for a day or two.

Same here monkey. As the yellow helmet was harmless, I thought the blue waffle would also be. What has been  seen....  :'(

I have never seen anything quite like it - I would hate to think it had ever been used for what nature intended  :-\

It is a shame such gruesome images as the "Yellow Helmet" can be posted on a "Senna" site, unnecessary, and would particularly upsetting for his close friends and family and fans, however flawed he was. I does however highlight the fact that you can break anything if you try hard enough and it was the result of the shear velocity of the debris following the high speed impact of Senna's crash. The worry is that the nanny state safety police could use Schmacher's actions as an example of the sport not being able to police itself and use it to put further safety constraints in and take away the ability for motorsport competitors to "Race" responsibly.

Blue Waffle...dont go there.

Too true. I am shocked and almost on the verge of pressing the "Report to Mod" button. I was just sitting down to a nice plate of kippers for my dinner and up came Blue Waffle. Zarse, you are one sick bastard, but then perhaps that is why you are one of the stars of CA ;)

I wish I didn't Google it   :o  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MAvSZPHSZ4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MAvSZPHSZ4&feature=related)  

Murray and James commentating. Prost. Damon. Schumacher. Senna.  

6th on the grid to 1st at the end of the first lap in the wet just by good driving...it wasn't always like it, but then you could play last of the late brakers and not go scything into the scenery because of a lack of downforce.....mechanical grip is the answer

MG Mark

The donnington race was truly a genius at work, there where many others as well.

Thats what makes the examples of recklessness even more shocking as he did not need to do it. Neither does MS. He could win anyway.

Pop over to www.jamesallenonf1.com 

The third topic down has an excellent photo of the incident last weekend, Rubens was so close to the wall from the shot posted :o

There some interesting post on his forum

There was still enough room, about the width of a paper sheet  :-\

Holly crap... I haven't seen the race and certainly not this picture before but this looks rather like an assault  than a racing line.  ::)

Personally, given Schumacher's established history of deliberately taking other drivers off the track when it suits him (Damon Hill) and trying to but not succeeding (Jacques Villeneuve), I'd prefer to see him permanently barred from racing, not only in F1 but in any other kind as well. He's not just a serial cheat, but he's also a dangerous serial cheat and now a proven menace to anyone who happens to be in his way.

With the Barrichello incident, MS wasn't even defending a point-scoring position, he wasn't going to win the race and he's never been in contention for the championship, which makes his actions all the more reckless and irresponsible. If he is allowed to continue getting away with stunts like this with only a slap on the wrist then what is currently a relatively uncommon occurrence is likely to spread because other drivers may well think that MS getting away with it means they can as well.

It's time the FIA made an example of him, revoked his race licence and stopped him driving completely, as far as I'm concerned.

Its interesting how different the regulations are regarding defending a position, whats exceptable, and whats not, between the FIA and Indycar.  There was a lot of talk over the Mid-Ohio weekend regarding the penalty imposed on Helio Castroneves two weeks ago in Edmonton, for what was deemed to be "blocking".  Most people are of the opinion that this penalty was excessive, and that Helio never altered his line, or made any sort of defensive maneuver.  In all fairness, Brian Barnhart, the competition director for Indycar runs a tight ship and doesn't put up with any bullshit from the drivers at all, some of this of course is because of the nature of Indycar racing where running in close quarters at dangerously high speeds (210-230 MPH) is regular feature, and the consequences of doing stupid things can be damn serious (witness Mike conways Indy 500 shunt).  He's swift with judgement & penalty, and I suspect if he'd seen one of his drivers pull the sort of stunt that Schumacher did, he would have been chucked out of the race on the spot, and would most likely be sitting out the rest of the season.  I'll take that sort of official over the knit-wits at the FIA, who collectively can't decide on the color of toilet paper in the bogs, never mind steward a motor race.
fax

Defending is part of racing - I saw the Castroneves incident, and was slightly bemused to be honest - he kept his line, no weaving, surely thats the point?  His JOB was to block Will Power, and stop him getting through?  His JOB is to make his car as wide as humanly possible - it's his right of way if you will, if he wants to cut across the racing line to defend, that is his RIGHT!!

If we start policing motorsports with "half track boundaries" (as Barnhart seems to think) then we're not actually racing any more, simply strategising on which side of the track to go - his explanation of the penalty is utter tripe.

The video is here: http://www.twitvid.com/Q3IEC (http://www.twitvid.com/Q3IEC)

Now you tell me where the block is?

 

No Brad, your wrong cutting across his line is NOT his right, you defend your positon by maintaining your line, braking deeper into the corner, then holding your position. Weaving all over the place, and pinching someone into the pitwall?  Thats not defending your position, its just being pig-ignorant.  This is where your youth shows Brad, you obviously assume this is the way its always been, wrong!  As been brought up before, that mind-set of "I'll do whatever they let me get away with" to keep you from coming through is a product of Senna.  You would never, EVER! have seen a Stewart, Lauda, Fittipaldi, etc. reduce themselves to such childish manuevers.  What had people confused about the penalty to Helio is just your point, he didn't alter his line, weave or any of the crap you see in F1 now.  But as I said, I'll still take a race steward who's decisive, makes up his mind about a situation and acts on it.  As Andy said, watching Hungary one would think lagging behind the safety car was a more serious offfence than almost running someone into the pitwall at top speed.
Fax

Firstly.  I'm not that young.

Secondly, that is exactly what I said.  Essentially though, if he wants to squeeze Power to the outside of the corner, and cause him to come off of the power, that's his right - he's making his car wide, and that's racing! Having taken his defensive line, he then has the right to come back onto the racing line at the exit of the corner is what I meant (although I can see how what I said was misconstrued).

I was commenting on the Castroneves incident - I see nothing wrong with that at all.

Schumacher is a different kettle of fish altogether.  I admire the guy for his ability to win at all costs, and I can understand rash moves like that out of desperation, if what you're fighting for is the race win that will win you the championship for example - for 10th place when you've no hope of winning the championship? You must be mental!  the fact that it was a move made on an ex-team mate just makes it worse.

I don't mind a race official who makes a call, but when that call is so blatantly wrong, you have to question whether instant penalties are the right solution?

If thats classed as blocking I'm glad I don't watch it  :o

Watch the ALMS race from Mid Ohio last weekend to see a proper race  :o  :-*

M point in all this is that here you had two examples at polar opposites to each other, one where there was a lack of officiating, the other a case of over officiating.  But ultimately both F1 and Indycar are made for TV fiasco's, all that being said, watching Castroneves going ape-sh*t after the race in Edmonton (I think I said it was Vancouver...Ooops!) was fricking hilarious, one official when asked what he said to Helio, when he grabbed him by the collar, said "I told him to breathe" he was turning blue...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=738rYz3iGX0
Agreed BB, the ALMS race was terrific, real racing and a superb win for The Dyson team and the Lola-Mazda.
Fax

The rules state that you can make one defensive manouver. The rule was brought in to stop people (AKA Senna) swerving all over the place in a "win at any costs" manner. What the rules do not allow you to do is push someone onto the wall. If MS had moved across to block the inside line BEFORE Rubens was level, then that would have been fine. But he didn't, he left it way too late and nearly caused a nasty accident.